Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Growing => Growing FAQs and other Information => Topic started by: Tinbasher on January 19, 2009, 22:26

Title: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Tinbasher on January 19, 2009, 22:26
Does anyone have any info or advice on the new 'non-residential' water charges that have been applied to (our) allotment site(s), by Utd Utilities?  

New ways of charging (ie: more expensive) were applied from April 1st last year for all 'non-residential' customers of property and/or land that had an account with UU, for the purposes of non-metered charges - ie: the Rainfall Tax, as it's now being called.  Instead of going off the old rateable-value calculation to charge for non-metered sewage (rainfall), they have begun to apply a 'site-area' charge, dependant on the size of the site.  The scheme however is being transitionally phased-in over 3 years, so the full impact may not be felt or understood by existing customers.  However, any new customers (since April 2007), which includes our site (only had a connection made last Jan) come onto the new charges in full from April 1st 08.  

Because of an indescribable series of cock-ups with their billing dep't (they tried to charge us for metered foul-sewage over and over, despite being told, and confirming by inspection visit, we had a septic tank, and untold estimated bills), we have only recently got to grips with exactly where we stand, and worked out exactly what we are (and what we're not) being charged for.

According to the new arrangements, we are placed in Band 3 (300 - 649 sq m) and so our non-metered sewage charge for this year should be £545.  This is however split into 2 components (50% each) of Surface Water (rain falling onto your land) and Highway Drainage (draining the streets and roads of, technically, the whole country, or at least the area of the country under control of Utd Utilities.  So including the M6 then in our case -  :( ).  They have waived the Surface Water Charge (£273) as they have accepted the rainfall is onto 'permeable land' (we are an allotment site after all) and drains straight into the earth, rather than is channeled into street and road drains, etc.  But the Highway Drainage Charge has no mechanism for a rebate and there is no process of appeal.  We are then left with a bill for £272 just for Highway Drainage.

It's debatable whether an allotment site (or anyone) should be paying to drain the streets and roads of the land, especially if such a site or property isn't adjacent to any such road or has any roads crossing it.  Ours actually is adjacent to a steet, but still..... All the same, we now have to pay £272 (equal to 9 plots' rent @ £30 each - and there are only 16 plots on site, it isn't that big, the plots are only 30 ft x 30 ft), in addition to the standing charge and meter reading for the water itself.  Our total annual water bill will surely top 300 quid then, maybe £400.  It seems a big proportion to pay out of total rental income of £480.  We have to pay an annual council lease of £135 pa, and we have electric too.  But it seems that water costs will top them all, and considering most of this is for draining the North West highways and byways.....   :?

Has anyone else come across this yet, or knows a way out of it?  I've spoken to the allotment society in the next town, a large site existing since the 1920s, but unfortunately they haven't got to grips with it yet.  They are being phased in over 3 years, so it's even more complex to work out.  But their information to me about the size of their site means they should be placed in Band 11.  Wait for it............ Highway Drainage alone is charged at £35, 843 pa.   :?  

This can't be right, it would obviously mean the death of the site, and I feel I must have gotten something wrong.  But I've got our Allotment Site's water bill in front of me right now, and it says Band 3 and £272 for Highway Drainage.  I also have a booklet from UU, with a full explanation of what the changes mean, complete with site area tables, giving site areas in sq metres, the banding applied and the costs for each band.

Any other Utd Utilities customers here?  How do we get exemption?  We are being treated exactly the same as commercial premises - UU have no other distinction than Residential or Non Residential.  

Recently, articles have been appearing in my free local weekly newspaper on exactly the same issues.  Last week, the local Scouts were appealing for help with a (presumably national) online petition because their premises have been hit with a massive hike in water rates.  The week before it was sports clubs, in particular Cricket Clubs - large site area including entire field, low income, and actually a lot of them all but close for 7 or 8 months a year.  They are starting to be phased into water bills totalling £1000s.  Band 6 for example (3000 - 6999 sq m) is charged at £2867 just for Highway Drainage.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: GreenOwl on January 20, 2009, 15:57
That is extremely worrying!

Have you contacted your MP?
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Bobby on January 20, 2009, 20:38
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  
  Our site pays rates to UU as well but I have not heard it mentioned at  monthly meetings.
  I have printed off your post and it certainly will be at the next!
  If this utility Co. gets away with it, all the others will follow suit.
  Thanks again Bob.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Tinbasher on January 21, 2009, 13:01
Quote from: "Bobby"
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  
  Our site pays rates to UU as well but I have not heard it mentioned at  monthly meetings.
  I have printed off your post and it certainly will be at the next!
  If this utility Co. gets away with it, all the others will follow suit.
  Thanks again Bob.


Yes, I've researched a little bit more and the implications are extremely worrying.  A local Cricket Club have had water charges for this year totalling over £4000, rather than a few hundred last year.  Which is serious enough.  However, what the chap I spoke to hasn't realised is that this is only a phasing-in of the new charge, and only represents a third of the change.  This year (Apr 09 - 10) will be charged at two-thirds and from April 2010 they will be on the full charge.  I'm not sure what site band they are in, but it sounds like it could be around Band 6 or 7 (charged by 2010 at £2867 or £5448 pa for Highway drainage alone).  This club has existed for over a century and yet is now severely struggling to pay this charge (on top of all others), and may indeed be forced to close if this situation persists.  Cricket Clubs suffer enough from rain as it is (abandoned matches, etc).  To now be faced with having to pay heavily for this 'privelege' is ludicrous.  This is REAL, it's happening right now.  Everyone needs to check it out - quickly - and add their voice to the concerns.

It's quite alarming that nobody seems to be aware of it or understands it.  No-one I have spoken to has any literature about it.  I however have a booklet from UU which they did send to our allotment group, so the literature is out there, but doesn't seem to have been distributed very much..........hmm.  All the info and costs are however on the UU website.

A local school (I know the secretary) has been placed in Band 6.  Their transitional (one third) cost for this year is £1911 (plus 2/3 of the old rateable-value charge) just for Highway Drainage, to rise to £2867 in 2010.  Add to this the fact they're also liable for the other 50% component - Surface Water - and by 2010 this school alone will be paying £5735 just for rainfall.   That's a lot of money just for rain falling out of the sky - a lot of books, etc.

The allotment site I mentioned in the next town is the most worrying.  They have 144 plots (which startled me, though I knew it was a large site) each at approx 70 x 70 feet each, so 4900 sq ft per plot.  Multiplied by 144 gives a total area of 705,600 sq ft, which by further calculation equals over 65,000 sq metres.  This will place their site in Band 11.  The total Highway Drainage cost by 2010 for Band 11 is to be £35, 843.  Every plot on this site has pathways in between each plot, some of them broad enough for a vehicle.  I don't know the area taken up by these paths and the boundary surrounds, etc, but in total they may easily add enough area to the site to bring it into Band 12 (over 75,000 sq m), which will then incur a drainage charge of £50, 180 pa.  Put another way, that will be just short of £350 pa for every plot holder, just for rainfall on the roads and streets (which are actually nothing to do with allotments)

The unfairness of it all is obvious.  If you are a large site you could incur costs of tens of £000s, equalling several hundred quid each.  A smaller site, whilst still bad enough, would be liable for hundreds of ££s and so 'only' each liable for say £17 (our site @ £272 divided by 16 plots).  A doubling and trebling of site area doesn't double or treble the cost (bad enough) - the leaps in charge from Band to Band are quite staggering.

Apparently, articles about it have recently appeared in The Telegraph and The Times, and I've heard it has been 'mentioned' in Parliament. Mentioned but not acted upon.  Inevitably the Gov't have known about this and must have sanctioned it, so in response to contacting one's MP................. :?

What's galling even more so is that the Water Authorities have spent some time concocting this scheme, and have decided it is 'fairer' than the old rateable value scheme.  Fairer if you're affluent and have a high-value property that is - crushing if you have a low-value or non-profit site.  After much consultation (costing possibly millions), they have submitted this idea and Ofwat (another expensive quango) have agreed it.  How come none of these august and well-paid people have never seen the anomaly that takes 15 minutes to realise, once you start to think about it?  Amateur sports clubs, allotments, Scouts, community premises, etc, etc, not to mention schools - and hospitals.  The latter two get paid out of a budget of public funds and because no private individual is liable, no-one seems to care - or rather to notice.

Because this scheme hasn't been instituted for residential properties, all householders in the land haven't noticed it, despite their own water charges maybe having risen alarmingly over recent years.  If only people were aware of what's going on behind the scenes.  Still, don't hold your breath, cos I can see this scheme, if it persists, being hailed a success in a few years and the same criteria then applied to residential properties too.

Because Ofwat are involved I would think a similar scheme has been applied across the country.  One water authority isn't going to sit by with some cosy old arrangement whilst their neighbouring authority charges millions.  In any case, I've heard that Yorkshire Water and Severn-Trent Water are applying the same.

A couple of other points to note:  Last year Utd Utilties made a profit of.....wait for it........ £1.34 million - per day!  Are not most of our water Authorities (private companies with shareholders) now actually owned by foreign companies?  All our water suppliers, unlike other utility companies, have a monopoly.  We can't opt for change to seek a better deal (though they're all the same when it comes down to it).

I think that this situation could be the most serious threat to allotment sites, above all others.  Poisoned manure or the lack of available land or pressure from housing projects will pale into insignificance compared to water bills of possibly tens of £1000s.  This sounds alarmist but I've seen our site bill, have spoken to a local school and a local sports club - and they have confirmed my worst fears.  As I said, this is REAL.  The cricket club have already received red letters and threats of legal action in connection with overdue four-figure sums.

Looked at overall I perceive this:  The authorities now know that rainfall in this country is a problem.  Look at the huge flooding of areas in our last 2 wet summers.  They know that this problem is likely to increase - all climate-change predictions say that foremost we will become much WETTER as much as warmer.  In addition they have/are/will continue to build on flood plains, thus increasing the drainage problem.  Certain areas have had to have compensation awarded by the gov't (though doubtless insufficient and long-awaited) and in addition cannot now get insurance against flooding.  All this is COST and a social burden, and the authorities have decided it will have to be paid for.........and that we're the ones to do the paying.  The gov't will have been quietly complicit in all of this, but have allowed the water authorities to do the actual charging, so distancing themselves from accusations.  This 'Rainfall Tax' or 'Drainage Tax' is quite possibly the worst Stealth Tax yet concocted, and could well the the 'death' of us all.  Just think - paying a heavy tax, all because it rains a lot.  It sounds ridiculous - but it's true.

Visit the UU website and look for links relating to Non-Metered Sewage Charges, Highway drainage, Surface Water.  You may have to go into the section relating to Business customers (meaning non-res, not just business & commercial - crafty of them to insinuate it's just businesses), rather then Domestic customers.  All the horrors of this new charge are there if you look closely enough.

A final thought:  All these charges I've quoted won't of course ever go down.  They will only ever rise and probably regularly.  Still, £5k, £30k, £50k - who's bothered if they rise 10% next year - we'll already be dead and buried.   :(

And think if you're in Band 15, over 150,000 sq metres, admittedly a large site.  The Rainfall charge (Highway Drainage and Surface Water @ 50% each) totals £162, 893 by 2010 - admittedly a large number.  Even if such a site (and all others) is a business, is it fair that a charge of this magnitude should be applied just because it rains a lot?  Businesses will have no option but to pass on these charges, thus meaning that we will all be paying for it in a roundabout way eventually.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 21, 2009, 13:38
Thanks for the heads up and the research you've done.  I'll follow this up with our committee too.

Oscar
Title: Well ...
Post by: wellingtons on January 22, 2009, 13:51
... I've now read the thread and still don't really quite understand the equation or logic Utd Utilities are using to calculate the bill.

But what I do know is you can't change your water company, you're stuck with them like it or not.

I wandered round the OFWAT site and didn't really find anything of any value.  But I would have thought OFWAT would be the people to talk to.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: madcat on January 22, 2009, 14:44
The Telegraph is running a campaign on this issue and its impact on sports clubs (sorry havent figured out links yet) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/brianmoore/4077412/Dont-let-our-local-sports-clubs-go-down-the-drain-because-of-water-charges..html
The RFU and cricketers have hooked up with it.  Perhaps you should approach him to extend the campaign to allotments too?
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on January 23, 2009, 13:49
Thanks for bringing this up Tinbasher this is an extremely important issue for plot holders.
Where to go next  :?
I'll certainly bring it up on Sunday with the committee at the society, we are with Severn Trent.

We could start a petition up on the 10 downing street website , there's one there already for charges but that seems to be just for churches.

I'm up for it if someone will help me out with the wording.

making thread a sticky.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on January 23, 2009, 14:47
Quote from: "tinbasher"

They have waived the Surface Water Charge (£273) as they have accepted the rainfall is onto 'permeable land' (we are an allotment site after all) and drains straight into the earth, rather than is channeled into street and road drains, etc. But the Highway Drainage Charge has no mechanism for a rebate and there is no process of appeal. We are then left with a bill for £272 just for Highway Drainage.


I may have got this wrong, but according to the UU charges scheme 2008-2009 pdf on ofwat it reads "
No reduction will be made of the highway drainage part of the charges. This part of the charge has to be borne by all consumers whose premises are connected to the public sewer network

So if your site is not connected in any way shape or form to the sewer network is this a way out ?

LINK (http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissues/chargesbills/chargeschemes2008-09/sub_chg_08-09nwt.pdf) section 4.7 paragraph 7 ( pdf page number 26 on my screen)
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Bobby on January 23, 2009, 16:45
Thank you Mods for making this a sticky.
  I wonder where local councils stand on this? Most parks, football pitches ect have toilets plumbed into the sewers.Are their vast acreages going to be taken into account?
  Ironically went to allotment this morning and half the plots were flooded and this is in sunny Manchester :roll:   Bob
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: poultrygeist on January 23, 2009, 18:07
Just read this about UU on BBC...

STORY (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7847771.stm)

They've bowed to pressure to freeze the rates for charities. Shows they can back down.

Rob 8)
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: poultrygeist on January 23, 2009, 18:57
Just found THIS (http://www.liv.ac.uk/law/clinic/index.htm).

University of Liverpool offering pro-bono (free) legal advice for the public good. Thought they may like to get involved as UU are within their area.

Good luck.

Rob 8)
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Tinbasher on January 24, 2009, 02:18
Quote from: "richyrich7"
Quote from: "tinbasher"

They have waived the Surface Water Charge (£273) as they have accepted the rainfall is onto 'permeable land' (we are an allotment site after all) and drains straight into the earth, rather than is channeled into street and road drains, etc. But the Highway Drainage Charge has no mechanism for a rebate and there is no process of appeal. We are then left with a bill for £272 just for Highway Drainage.


I may have got this wrong, but according to the UU charges scheme 2008-2009 pdf on ofwat it reads "
No reduction will be made of the highway drainage part of the charges. This part of the charge has to be borne by all consumers whose premises are connected to the public sewer network

So if your site is not connected in any way shape or form to the sewer network is this a way out ?

LINK (http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissues/chargesbills/chargeschemes2008-09/sub_chg_08-09nwt.pdf) section 4.7 paragraph 7 ( pdf page number 26 on my screen)



First off, thanks for stickying it.  I was impatient that folk got onto this, and hopefully now they will.

I see what you mean with your quote of theirs, but on thinking - who is actually directly connected to the public sewer network? Or rather who isn't?  All the rainwater that comes off your roof, via your downspouts, all that drains off your driveway, car-park, etc, etc, normally makes its way into the road gullies, down a grid and into the public sewer - itself a misleading term, I prefer to say land drains.  Included also (it's in their literature) is also all run-off into other land gullies and all natural waterways.  If any of your rainwater eventually diverts to a stream or ditch, they have jurisdiction there too - all water authorities are responsible for natural waterways, no matter how small.

Our site has been disregarded for 50% of the drainage charge (surface water) because in effect they have accepted we have NO RUN-OFF onto anywhere as it's all 'permeable land', as they term it.  But still we are charged for Highway Drainage.  Not only do we not have a physical connection to the street (a series of pipes maybe, though that still wouldn't drain every drop that fell), but we are actually percolating all the rain directly into the ground, so there is no general run-off for the road drains to cope with.

The water you put down your sinks, or baths or washing machines, or WC is a different component.  That is rightly termed sewage, and should be known as foul sewage.  It's on different drains, certainly initially.   We have no foul sewage connection (septic tank), despite them trying over and over to charge us for this as well (it took months and a dozen letters and calls).  So in effect we have no disposal of water of any kind into anything they manage.  All we have from them is a 15mm supply standpipe on the border fence, which is in turn spliced to form a supply to a cabin.  We pay for that on a meter, plus a standing charge of course.

It is interesting wording though and worth pursuing.  I'll see what I can make of it, come Monday.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Tinbasher on January 24, 2009, 02:50
Quote from: "Bobby"
Thank you Mods for making this a sticky.
  I wonder where local councils stand on this? Most parks, football pitches ect have toilets plumbed into the sewers.Are their vast acreages going to be taken into account?
  Ironically went to allotment this morning and half the plots were flooded and this is in sunny Manchester :roll:   Bob


It's not the toilets (or sinks), or the sewers they feed into that's the issue here.  What they're charging for now is the rainfall, which flows into different drains anyway, the ones down the grid in your street, or the local stream.  And the bigger you are, and so the more rain you 'catch' the more you pay.  It was bad enough paying for this under rateable value schemes, it's even worse now we're paying by the square metre.  Still, whatever they choose to call a collection scheme or however they calculate it, is of little interest as long as it's a few quid a year.  When it suddenly goes to 5 and 10 grand for no material change is when you wonder what's going on.

In effect it's actually a Land Tax, instituted by a private shareholder company, who already make a profit of over £1.3 million a day, and loosely based on something that falls free from the sky anyway.  In fact, we're collecting it for them so as they can use it to purify and sell us back as fresh water, admittedly a good service.  But only the No 1 essential that distinguishes us as 'civilised', 'modern' or 'advanced'.   It should be a pre-requisite for any 21st century society, not a luxury that has to be heavily charged.  It's water for God's sake.  I keep forgetting though - it isn't the water they're supplying to us that's expensive.  It's the rain we're good enough to supply to them.  That's what we're paying for.

The drains are already there, built by industrious Victorians at great labour, eager to prevent flooding in new urban areas, and to avoid cholera and typhoid in the case of foul sewage.  Granted they need maintainance (and have probably been consistently under-maintained over long ages), but .........£1.34 million a day...??

All water companies should be compulsorily re-nationalised forthwith.  If nothing else ever, no-one should be allowed to 'own' water companies or be able to profiteer by them.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: John on January 24, 2009, 10:44
Quote from: "Tinbasher"
All water companies should be compulsorily re-nationalised forthwith.  If nothing else ever, no-one should be allowed to 'own' water companies or be able to profiteer by them.


Without getting too political - I can agree with that! I can see the argument for different electric / gas suppliers although they're really operating as oligopolies but we have no choice of supplier for water and companies have proven they're willing to break the law in pursuit of profit (e.g. Severn Trent )

The World Bank has pushed this 'wonderful' private water ideal on many poor countries, resulting in demands for more money than people earn to provide drinking water and so on. People have died in the resulting troubles.

All that aside, this is really concerning - after all, an allotment site is more like a farm than a property and I doubt there are many that make a 'profit'
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Aunt Sally on January 24, 2009, 10:58
Allotment holders (in general) are not permitted to make a financial profit by selling produce, unlike a farm.  They are more like an extension to someones back garden - just not joined on.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: John on January 24, 2009, 11:31
Quote from: "Aunt Sally"
Allotment holders (in general) are not permitted to make a financial profit by selling produce, unlike a farm.  They are more like an extension to someones back garden - just not joined on.


I meant sites that make a profit rather than plotholders.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Aunt Sally on January 24, 2009, 17:50
How would an allotment site make a profit  :?
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: John on January 24, 2009, 17:58
Well none do like a company but some collect more in rent than their costs, usually this is into a fund for improvements later like new fencing.

I'm sure there's some special accountancy term for it.
Title: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: John on January 24, 2009, 23:53
Damn, I'll be thinking about this all night now.  :(
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 29, 2009, 13:11
I've written to my MP about this (and other matters) expressing my utter disgust that we have a system that prioritises the profit motive to the utter detriment of the fabric of our society.  I'll post his reply back up.

Anyone else taken action?  Any results?
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: waddecar on January 29, 2009, 13:30
I have been following this in the press - didn't realise that allotments might be affected. Several points though:

This "action" has been initiated by OFWAT so all water companies will have to implement so its not just a north west problem.

UU dont actually want to do it (or so they say) and UU have this week postponed implementation for 12 months inthe hope that politicians will sort it out

But that only delays it for 12 months so write to your MP
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 30, 2009, 11:56
Does anyone have a link or any info about the telegraph campaign?  I can't find it easily.  I'm keen to get allotments on board with that campaign.  Any objections?
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Ice on January 30, 2009, 12:02
Hope this helps.  I did email them but never got a reply.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/4376454/Time-to-ease-pressure-of-rain-tax-on-sports-clubs.html
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 30, 2009, 12:12
OK, found it.

Let's get this out to everyone we know.

Oscar

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/4376454/Time-to-ease-pressure-of-rain-tax-on-sports-clubs.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/forumOtherInsertThread.do;jsessionid=A618FA24A9414FDEAEF5BFF992FCBFDC.drtomcat2

I'll do some more thinking over the weekend, but it seems to me that we should be
a) joining in with existing efforts, such as the one above, and
b) encouraging the National Society to start taking action

I have no links to the national society other than paying my sub every year.  Does anyone have any links to committee/management level?
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 30, 2009, 15:38
Letter to my MP - feel free to adapt and send to yours.  Written with the help of an experienced parliamentary campaigner, by the way.


Dear Jonathan

I was astonished to find out about the recent changes to utility pricing policy by OFWAT.

Utility companies all over England are seeking to charge churches, community sports clubs, schools, and allotment societies the same commercial rate for rainwater disposal as they charge supermarkets and leisure parks.  Leave aside the fact that rainwater is the raw material for the product that they sell back to the users.  Churches, local sports clubs and so on are part of the warp and weft of our society.  Charging commercial rates will cripple and close many of them, damaging society’s fabric and cohesion even further.  It is outrageous that a private company can even contemplate such a move, let alone implement it.  It is more outrageous that these moves have OFWAT’s support.

Let us also leave aside the idiocy of privatising natural monopolies.

I am aghast that we are so ready to sacrifice everything to the profit motive.  The regulators are powerless to protect consumers, and the Government kow-tows to the business community.

You may be aware that the England Rugby player Brian Moore is leading a campaign by sports clubs to force utilities companies to back down over these proposed charges.  I shall be alerting the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners to the threat to our pastime and our nation’s health.

I would like you to write to the chairman of Southern Water, Mike Welton, at

Southern Water Services
Southern House
Yeoman Road
Worthing
Sussex
BN13 3NX

and ask him to explain his companys’ position in relation to this.





I would also like you to write to both OFWAT, and your colleague the Minister for Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs, asking why this new pricing structure has been approved.  I would be grateful to receive copies of any replies.

Yours sincerely





Oscar Franklin
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: John on January 30, 2009, 16:34
That's very good Oscar - we need to mention allotments though  :)

This site provides details of your mp and how to get to them Write to Them (http://www.writetothem.com/)
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on January 30, 2009, 16:39
That's very good Oscar - we need to mention allotments though  :)

This site provides details of your mp and how to get to them Write to Them (http://www.writetothem.com/)

Erm, I did, twice....

good link, I should have thought of posting that one too.

I've emailed my local BBC about whether they are interested in the story. 

I hope we get a bandwagon going.  I'm furious about this (and a lot of other Labour failures).

Pity it takes ten years of a Labour government to make me become an activist for local communities' and people's rights instead of the profit margin.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on January 30, 2009, 21:06
Problem is if you read OFWAT's site they say they say they are doing implementing it in responce to guidance by the Secretary of Sate in 2000 !

There's a E-petition on line about it but it relates on to places of worship, I'm proposing to launch one for allotments, sports clubs etc. Just trying to get the wording right   :wacko:
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Tinbasher on January 31, 2009, 19:27
Letter to my MP - feel free to adapt and send to yours.  Written with the help of an experienced parliamentary campaigner, by the way.


Brilliant this, and to all the others who have researched and initiated campaigns too.  I rung UU this week gone, pestering about these new charges and quoting opposition and things I'd seen & heard in the media (and on here though i didn't tell them that much).  They've promised to write to us this next week.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on January 31, 2009, 21:46
This is a copy of the E-petition I wish to initiate with 10 Downing street any comments suggestions very much appreciated.

Quote

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to...

Reverse the guidance from the Secretary of State issued in 2000 regarding surface water charges to non household non business users



The Secretary of State issued guidance in 2000 that water companies should be charging non-household users that are not businesses including, community facilities (Which will include such as allotments, sports grounds etc), places of worship, charities and voluntary bodies. The guidance stated that those making similar demands on a service should be charged on the same basis

 This guidance and subsequent compliance by OFWAT has the potential to raise charges to such a point that members will face financial hardship trying to meet the new charges or the facility will no longer be able to function. The loss of which will cause many members of the community to be deprived of such facility’s.

 Further more we ask for the Highway water charge to have some mechanism for rebate to allow those facility's that have little or no load on that system to pay a reduced fee.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Yorkie on January 31, 2009, 21:54
Think it looks pretty good, Richy.  If I may clarify or amend a couple of bits?

This is a copy of the E-petition I wish to initiate with 10 Downing street any comments suggestions very much appreciated.

Quote

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to...

Reverse the guidance from the Secretary of State issued in 2000 regarding surface water charges to non household non business users



The Secretary of State issued guidance in 2000 that water companies should be charging non-household users that are not businesses, including community facilities (which will include such as allotments, sports grounds etc), places of worship, charities and voluntary bodies. The guidance stated that those making similar demands on a service should be charged on the same basis.

This guidance and subsequent compliance by OFWAT has the potential to raise charges to such a point that members will face financial hardship trying to meet the new charges or the facility will no longer be able to function.  This will ultimately cause many members of the community to be deprived of such facilities.

Furthermore, we ask for the Highway water charge to have some mechanism for rebate to allow those facilities that have little or no load on that system to pay a reduced or fully rebated fee as applicable in the circumstances.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 02, 2009, 16:40
Just seen at the top of your post that we can modify your letter as needed,Ill be talking to my lotty officer to find out info, and send a revised version to my MP(even though shes as much use as a chocolate fireguard and didnt oppose our A&E dept being moved miles away)

Doesn't matter.  Ten letters on an issue is enough to get the issue right to the top of their agenda.  If she gets ten, and the neighbouring MP gets ten, and his neighbour gets ten, suddenly you've got a lot of worried MPs.  My MP only has a majority of 3000.  There's about 250 allotments in the constituency.  That's easily enough upset allotmenteers to whittle away at his majority, before you even get to the football players and churchgoers.

In subsequent correspondence, we can make mention of the fact that we know that at least (however many) MPs across the country have had similar letters from concerned constituents.

I shall be visiting the neighbours too - both their sons play football, and their dad had an allotment.  I might trundle off to the cathedral too.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 02, 2009, 16:47
And my allotment association has asked me to draft a letter of Bryn Pugh, legal advisor to the National Society.   Might be worth asking your local association to get in contact with him too.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on February 02, 2009, 20:44
Think it looks pretty good, Richy.  If I may clarify or amend a couple of bits?



Thank you Yorkie, I've sent your version in for acceptance.   :D

Hopefully it will go live and will be open for 6 months, with that and letters to MP's  as Oscar suggested, fingers crossed
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 03, 2009, 10:52
(I might regret this)

I've done a bit of campaigning, and have access to other campaigners.  If people are happy for me to do it, I'm happy to coordinate and monitor the campaign on this site, and try and link to other campaigns on the issue (sports clubs etc.)

In practise this would mean you letting me know what letters or emails you have sent, whether you've received a response, being happy to sign up for a longer campaign as I don't think one letter will do it, identifying other people affected in your areas, getting your local association involved and letting us know, all so that we can put together a coherent campaign and keep track on who has said what to which MP/Councillor/water company, and what results we are acheiving.

Before I go into greater detail, can people let me know whether they are happy for me to assume the role?

Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on February 03, 2009, 21:44
E-petition now active http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/allotmentwater/

please sign  :D
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on February 04, 2009, 09:11
Great thanks everybody lets see if we can keep it rolling, we need to get more than 200 for it to get looked at and a response. 
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 04, 2009, 10:52
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ChurchWaterBills/

Found the petition relating to Church water bills.  40,683 signatories and counting.

Can't find one for sports clubs or other interest groups.

The whole petition business is ludicrous, anyway.  I'm not knocking your effort at all Richard.  However, history shows that petitioning as a way of changing policy or practise usually comes around in autocracies.  The whole "good Tsar, bad ministers" belief - if the Prime Minister knew what terrible things were happening, he'd stop it.  In my opinion, the petitions website was another symptom of Tony Blair's megalomania.  I'm sure N. 10 wish it would die a death.  Any good petitions such as ours are drowned out by the, frankly, sad, ludicrous, or dangerous. 

We'll win this if we keep banging on at our elected representatives, whose job it is to represent our interests.  I'll have some time over the weekend, if people are happy I'll draw up a strategy, resource list, and some templates.  Is that ok?

Oscar
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: waddecar on February 04, 2009, 21:10
I've signed.... and I got a reply from my MP this morning - Ben Wallace (lancaster and Wyre)  I originally wrote to him on the back of a scouting campaign. He has clearly been on this one for a while as he had a meeting with United Utilities back in August 2008 but it was about increased charges for churches.  I think I need to get back to him to bring things upto date and to bring in allotments issues. Will wait for your steer Oscar.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: wighty on February 04, 2009, 22:50
This sounds a bit of a funny question but I have had my e-mail back but it won't let me click on it.  Do I have to remove the 'pop up' block first.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 05, 2009, 08:57
This sounds a bit of a funny question but I have had my e-mail back but it won't let me click on it.  Do I have to remove the 'pop up' block first.

Yes - the pop-up block deactivates all the content in your email unless you chooses that you trust the sender.

Oscar
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on February 05, 2009, 09:56
I'm a City Councillor in Carlisle. At our Council Budget Meeting on Tuesday we as Labour members tabled an ammendment to try and prevent a 270% rise in combined water and rent charges that was in this years budget review and proposed by the Tory Executive.

As you may guess the Executive blamed  United Utilities for the rise. They didn't know however that the water to Council owned  sites in Carlisle is turned off for the winter to prevent damage to the supply infrastructure, this can be sometimes for a period of 6 months.


I spoke at Council and pointed out that some allotments have hens, pigeons etc on them and water has to carried to the site to provide the livestock. Once again they weren't aware off this.

I've pointed out the section in the document on the Offwat website that refers to reductions in the surface water and highway drainage parts of the sewerage charges (4.7) to the officer who looks after the allotments letting etc. for the council and she is going to look at exactly what United Utilities are charging us for.

I'll let you know if I get any further.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on February 05, 2009, 10:19
I'm a City Councillor in Carlisle. At our Council Budget Meeting on Tuesday we as Labour members tabled an ammendment to try and prevent a 270% rise in combined water and rent charges that was in this years budget review and proposed by the Tory Executive.

As you may guess the Executive blamed  United Utilities for the rise. They didn't know however that the water to Council owned  sites in Carlisle is turned off for the winter to prevent damage to the supply infrastructure, this can be sometimes for a period of 6 months.


I spoke at Council and pointed out that some allotments have hens, pigeons etc on them and water has to carried to the site to provide the livestock. Once again they weren't aware off this.

I've pointed out the section in the document on the Offwat website that refers to reductions in the surface water and highway drainage parts of the sewerage charges (4.7) to the officer who looks after the allotments letting etc. for the council and she is going to look at exactly what United Utilities are charging us for.

I'll let you know if I get any further.

I would have preferred a less party political response to this issue.   However you will obviously be very close to the thoughts and actions of your MP, and through him the views of the government, so perhaps you could let us all know what he and the government have already done to ensure that these increases in water rates for allotments, churches, sports grounds etc do not take place.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: John on February 05, 2009, 11:02
I'm a City Councillor in Carlisle. At our Council Budget Meeting on Tuesday we as Labour members tabled an ammendment to try and prevent a 270% rise in combined water and rent charges that was in this years budget review and proposed by the Tory Executive.

As you may guess the Executive blamed  United Utilities for the rise. They didn't know however that the water to Council owned  sites in Carlisle is turned off for the winter to prevent damage to the supply infrastructure, this can be sometimes for a period of 6 months.


I spoke at Council and pointed out that some allotments have hens, pigeons etc on them and water has to carried to the site to provide the livestock. Once again they weren't aware off this.

I've pointed out the section in the document on the Offwat website that refers to reductions in the surface water and highway drainage parts of the sewerage charges (4.7) to the officer who looks after the allotments letting etc. for the council and she is going to look at exactly what United Utilities are charging us for.

I'll let you know if I get any further.

Thanks Donald - it's good to know that some of our politicians (of any hue) are actually working for us.

Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oliver on February 05, 2009, 11:25
Just found THIS (http://www.liv.ac.uk/law/clinic/index.htm).

University of Liverpool offering pro-bono (free) legal advice for the public good. Thought they may like to get involved as UU are within their area.

Good luck.

Rob 8)
Hello all, just been reading about this water business.  Came across this post - have you considered approaching the NSALG? (http://www.nsalg.org.uk/). If you are a member they also offer legal advice. See what they have to say about this.
Oliver
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: richyrich7 on February 05, 2009, 11:30
Just found THIS (http://www.liv.ac.uk/law/clinic/index.htm).

University of Liverpool offering pro-bono (free) legal advice for the public good. Thought they may like to get involved as UU are within their area.

Good luck.

Rob 8)
Hello all, just been reading about this water business.  Came across this post - have you considered approaching the NSALG? (http://www.nsalg.org.uk/). If you are a member they also offer legal advice. See what they have to say about this.
Oliver

I think a lot of people are probably members but don't know as it's sometimes incorporated into your allotments society fee's, I think we are can't remember :blush:
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 05, 2009, 11:37
Just found THIS (http://www.liv.ac.uk/law/clinic/index.htm).

University of Liverpool offering pro-bono (free) legal advice for the public good. Thought they may like to get involved as UU are within their area.

Good luck.

Rob 8)
Hello all, just been reading about this water business.  Came across this post - have you considered approaching the NSALG? (http://www.nsalg.org.uk/). If you are a member they also offer legal advice. See what they have to say about this.
Oliver

Thanks Oliver.  I'll be drafting a letter to their legal adviser at the weekend and submitting it through our association.

Oscar
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on February 05, 2009, 12:54
.
Mikem

Sorry you think my reply was political. I only mentioned the parties involved to show people how our particular Council is made up.

I only posted my comments as a help to other fellow allotment holders and not as a political statement. I won't be letting you know what my MP and the Government are doing as you asked. I try to keep my politics and leisure activities apart, I will not be drawn into a political debate on this forum.

I suggest you contact your own MP for the answers to your questions.
I am a local Councillor representing my Ward members NO MATTER WHICH WAY THEY VOTE.
As far as I'm concerned this matter is now finished, I will be making no more comments on this subject

Donald Cape
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on February 05, 2009, 13:15
.
Mikem

Sorry you think my reply was political. I only mentioned the parties involved to show people how our particular Council is made up.

I only posted my comments as a help to other fellow allotment holders and not as a political statement. I won't be letting you know what my MP and the Government are doing as you asked. I try to keep my politics and leisure activities apart, I will not be drawn into a political debate on this forum.

I suggest you contact your own MP for the answers to your questions.
I am a local Councillor representing my Ward members NO MATTER WHICH WAY THEY VOTE.
As far as I'm concerned this matter is now finished, I will be making no more comments on this subject

Donald Cape

I was not looking for a political debate; my response was not political, in fact the opposite, mearly suggesting that you should be close to the MP for your area (I don't know what party they may belong to) and as you said that "I'll let you know if I get any further" I presumed that you would be making further comment.  I honestly regret that this is not now to be the case as we are trying to resolve this issue with the water companies.  You will see from the above messages (3rd February) that I have already written to my MP.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: John on February 05, 2009, 14:53
I do hope you can reconsider Donald - your contribution on this is valuable and much appreciated.

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Tinbasher on February 06, 2009, 11:35
Yep, thanks for all the efforts.  I signed it t'other day.  No word from UU this week and they did say they would write.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on February 07, 2009, 08:41
Hiya,
Sorry Mikem my comment was probably too harsh. I'll let the forum know if I get any further. I'm a "get my hands dirty" Councillor who is more interested in my Ward and it's local problems than national problems. That's what I fought my election campaign on, ie getting bins emptied and street lights repaired.

I talked to the Council' Green Spaces Officer yesterday about the drainage and the fact that we only have water from March to October yet the water rates state that the charge is for a year. She is going to chase it and come back to me if she gets anywhere.

Donald


Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on February 07, 2009, 08:44
Hiya,
Sorry Mikem my comment was probably too harsh. I'll let the forum know if I get any further. I'm a "get my hands dirty" Councillor who is more interested in my Ward and it's local problems than national problems. That's what I fought my election campaign on, ie getting bins emptied and street lights repaired.

I talked to the Council' Green Spaces Officer yesterday about the drainage and the fact that we only have water from March to October yet the water rates state that the charge is for a year. She is going to chase it and come back to me if she gets anywhere.

Donald




Thanks, welcome back.  I am sure that we all appreciate your involvement.  :)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on February 07, 2009, 12:21
Hiya,
I talked to my MP today while delivering leaflets (he's an old schoolmate of mine and he's OK) and asked him about our threefold rise in water rates. I wanted to find out the best way to get the Council to explain what United Utilities are charging for. If they are charging for water disposal when we aren't connected to the sewers or the rainwater disposal system then they (the council) and us as the people who are paying are being conned. He gave me some good advice on how to go about it.

I suspect the Council don't have a clue how the charges are made up and have just passed the United Utilities rise on to us without questioning it. I will be trying to find out this during the coming week but I might have to resort to using the Freedon Of Information Act.

There is also the possibility of my party group going to the media with this. If this happens it will be me that is leading. I'll keep you informed
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Yorkie on February 12, 2009, 18:36
There's a website set up to oppose these charges, though I haven't explored it in any detail.

It's:

http://www.dontdrainus.org/

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: sedgie on February 15, 2009, 20:58
Just signed the petition, and forwarded links to this forum and to the petition to the rest of our committee - I don't think any of us were/are aware of this.. we have a committee meeting next week and I will be pushing for individual letters to our MP - such as she is.
Title: Re: Water Charges - Utd Utilities
Post by: Oscar Too on February 15, 2009, 21:30
(I might regret this)

I've done a bit of campaigning, and have access to other campaigners.  If people are happy for me to do it, I'm happy to coordinate and monitor the campaign on this site, and try and link to other campaigns on the issue (sports clubs etc.)

In practise this would mean you letting me know what letters or emails you have sent, whether you've received a response, being happy to sign up for a longer campaign as I don't think one letter will do it, identifying other people affected in your areas, getting your local association involved and letting us know, all so that we can put together a coherent campaign and keep track on who has said what to which MP/Councillor/water company, and what results we are acheiving.

Before I go into greater detail, can people let me know whether they are happy for me to assume the role?



I've put together a pack with suggested letters, approaches, and information.  I'm sorry it's taken longer than I thought - I had the week from hell last week and couldn't get any time for personal internet use - meetings all day, work emails all evening.  It has settled back down again now.

I'll put the last bits of info in tomorrow, and post it up here.  I have addresses, suggestions for letters, and so on.  It's not anything anyone else could not have put together, but it is all in one place and may be useful.  I estimate that if someone were to start at the beginning of what I suggest, and work through to the end, it will take about an hour at the most.  Plus a few stamps and envelopes. 

I think it's important that we link to other local organisations that are (potentially) affected too - cathedrals, sports clubs, churches, scouts troops.  A united front will really turn the heat up on our MPs.  UNfortunately I can't research everyone's local scout troops etc, but I would urge people to make the connections if they can.

Til tomorrow....

Oscar
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Larkshall on February 16, 2009, 08:19
I live in a rural area (it is at present) and we have had a serious drainage problem for over twenty five years. The sewer was put in in 1975 and the problem arose a few years later. When we have serious flood water (we are not in a flood plain) the sewer floods and we get paper and dodo over the footpath and into the ditch (which eventually goes into the Old West River). We have been unable to use our toilet for 5 days in the last week. We are the lowest point in the sewer and are the only house to have this problem. We have notified Anglian Water, The Environment Agency, our local MP and BBC Look East, to no effect.

I wonder if we can claim for failure to carry out what we are paying Anglian Water for. I have had to spend £55 to replace a old Thetford "Porta Potti", I am sending the invoice to Anglian water.  :mad: :mad: :mad:
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Oscar Too on February 16, 2009, 12:35
Water Strategy.  Long but should help keep the pressure on.  Please read and please try to write the letters as suggested.  If we can build momentum, we can get this stopped.  Remember, an election is looming, lots of Labour and Conservative MPs will be nervous.



1)   Sign up to Richy’s petition at

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/allotmentwater/

2)   Sign up to church charges petition at:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ChurchWaterBills/

3)   Sign up to Daily Telegraph sports ground charges petition at:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/brianmoore/4077481/Join-Brian-Moores-petition.html

4)   Write to your MP, making the following points:
-   Community organisations such as churches, sports grounds, Scouts troops, schools, and especially allotments across the country are being charged at the same rate as commercial organisations for rainwater disposal
-   This change was approved by OFWAT
-   In many cases, the new charging structure represents an increase of up to 1000% on the old charges
-   For charges that are met by councils, such as schools, this means added pressure on the council tax and on council services.
-   Many other organisations will be forced to close or to severely limit their activities due to the new charges.
-   The charges are attracting high levels of protest.  40,000 people have signed a number 10 petition against levying charges on churches, 3,000 people have joined a Daily Telegraph campaign against charges on sports clubs.
-   Allotments are particularly affected.  Most sites have a large surface area but very low income.
-   The new charges could mean many allotment sites closing.
-   There are potentially ?,000 allotment holders in your constituency  who would be affected (please try and find out, if you can)
-   Please write to your colleagues the Minister for Environment, asking whether there are any plans to reduce rainwater disposal charges for community organisations such as allotment sites.
-   Please write to OFWAT, asking them whether there are any plans to reduce rainwater disposal charges for community organisations such as allotment sites.
-   Please write to [your local water company] asking whether there are any plans to reduce rainwater charges for community organisations
-   Please forward any responses received to [you]

Remarks to the letter:
The purpose of this letter is to 1) alert your MP to the charges structure; 2) show the breadth of opposition to the new charges from a wide range of community organisations and in all areas of the country, but especially your constituency, which will help to focus their mind on the next election; 3) make clear, concrete requests for action of them, to which you can return in a few weeks; 4) through those requests for action, alert Min of Environment, OFWAT and the local utility company to the depth of opposition to the charges.

The letter can be either paper-based, emailed through your MP’s website, or sent through a site such as www.writetothem.com which will identify your MP, councillors etc by entering your post code.


5)   Write to your council allotment officer, or parish allotment officer, asking whether they are aware of the new charges and what plans they have to meet them.

6)   Write to the chief exec of OFWAT yourself at
Ofwat
Centre City Tower
7 Hill Street
Birmingham B5 4UA
United Kingdom

asking whether there are any plans to reduce charges for community organisations.  Copy letter to your MP.

7)   Mobilise other allotmenteers, friends, neighbours, churches you have links to, scouts organisations, sports grounds, about the charges.  Encourage them to carry out steps 1-7 above.

8)   Get a paper-based petition going on your allotment site about the charges.  Suggested phrasing:
We the undersigned are concerned about the impact of new rainwater disposal charges upon our leisure activity [if you have any concrete figures, insert them here].  We call upon the Secretary of State for the Environment to instruct OFWAT to reduce these charges to their previous level, recognising the importance of allotments to health and wellbeing of communities.

9)   Let the chair of your local allotment association know of the charges and encourage them to carry out steps 1-7 above

Comments:

From my point of view, this charge is a disgrace.  The privatisation of utilities and natural monopolies is economically indefensible.  Making a profit from the provision of the basic necessities of life such as water is morally indefensible.  And the fact that the profit is to be increased by charges on community organisations shows how cynical the search for profit has become.  The fact that our MPs and government are allowing this to happen shows how blind to anything but big business they have become.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Oscar Too on February 20, 2009, 09:24
I've set up a spreadsheet to monitor response etc.

Can everyone please let me know who they have written to (councillors and MPs etc.) and whether they've had a response.

This isn't to make sure that people are contributing, it's so that is later stages of the campaign we can say to MPs etc "40 MPs across the country have received letters from allotment holders about this issue".

Please can you let me know by posting here or by PM.

To start the ball rolling, I've written to my MP, and spoken to the Chair of the local association.  I haven't yet written to OFWAT and the rest, but will this weekend.

Cheers

Oscar
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Larkshall on February 21, 2009, 11:41
I wonder if we can claim for failure to carry out what we are paying Anglian Water for. I have had to spend £55 to replace a old Thetford "Porta Potti", I am sending the invoice to Anglian water.  :mad: :mad: :mad:

Update: I received a cheque for £55 yesterday morning. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: woodsmoke on March 02, 2009, 17:03
The thing is I had read a bit about this with regard to churches and, I think, golf clubs.  But it had not registered.  Now that so many allotment sites are at capacity there must be a lot of us.  We have to fight back.  I have just left a site because the rent has gone from £23 in 2004 to £58 last year and rising.  The new site is £20.  But for how long?  With constant trillions and millions in the news it all becomes meaningless.  But not to the ordinary person.  We must fight back.
What if all these non-residential customers, who are not businesses, refused to pay?
This leaves me so shocked.
Perhaps we have to march.  Seriously.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: lottienewbie on March 02, 2009, 18:21
just signed up as we are new to the allotment way of living,but i was very worried to read this article,i have indeed signed the petition,and i have sent a e-mail to my local MP who is normaly most helpful,i think i get the gyst of what is being said,but being a bit lazy i copied and pasted the first post on here and sent it to him,so will keep you up to date with what he replies with.

but on a more less serious note may i say a big hello from me to ya all,


Kind regards Neil.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Debbie Knight on March 02, 2009, 21:30
This is so worrying....I've just signed the petition and will be writing to my MP.  Must admit haven't heard anything through the local grapevine for increased charges for our plot but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: lottienewbie on March 03, 2009, 13:44
hi ya,
       i am at the moment in talks with my m p regarding this issue,have nothing to report so far,but when i do i will post the reply on here for you all to see,so far i have had a quick response from him,but yet no answers.

this is my first year as a allotment user,keen,but know * all lol

regards
 

 Neil.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: woodsmoke on March 03, 2009, 16:59
I have just followed the link from Richie's post and signed the petition.  Everyone out there please sign.  There are only 89 names on it so far.  That is not going to carry any weight.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/allotmentwater/
If I have not got that right then google it!
Just sign.
I cannot be the only one who can no longer imagine life without an allotment.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: richyrich7 on March 03, 2009, 20:12
Great :D please let us know if anyone gets an official response, Oscar Too is co-ordinating it and is keeping a track of replies from MP's etc.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: lottienewbie on March 04, 2009, 13:57
As yet i have had no response from my mp,but i have written a letter to my council whom i rent my plot from to see where they stand on this matter,
will report to you when i get a response,but knowing councils they will sit on the fence and get splinters lol

heres hoping we can stop this



Neil.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Mrs Soup on March 04, 2009, 23:27
I checked the Dwr Cymru site on this and it would appear that for this year at least there is a mechanism for reclaiming the surface water and highway drainage element of your bill.

They state that if none of your rainwater drains to the public sewer then you are exempt, and if you can prove that less than 95% of your water used returns to the sewer system then you can apply for a rebate on the sewerage element.

I guess they're catching people with the run-off from buildings going into the system, and charging for the whole site area. :ohmy:

Reading the Telegraph article, there is no compulsion on water companies to use the area method for charging, and not all of them are planning to do so.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: lottienewbie on March 05, 2009, 17:05
I have now heard back from my local council,and yep they are sitting on the fence,they say they are aware of the "rain tax" and they are currently accesing its implication on the council,and will report back to me when they have more info,but they thank me for bringing this to their attention,blimey thats nice of them lol

regards Neil.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on March 08, 2009, 20:44
Latest about the water charges that we are going to bring to the media's attention.

1) Our normal allotment size is 120 sq mtrs, however some people have half plots of 60 sq mtrs, rent is based on the area but the water charge is the same for both half and full plots. Some people who have two half plots pay twice for their water.

2) The water is turned off for 6 months but we pay an annual fee. People with poultry have to take their own water during the winter.

3) We aren't connected to a sewerage system, United Utilities may be charging as though we were. I've asked at Council that they investigate if this is the case and have they passed on the United Utilities increase without questioning United Utilities about it.

We are waiting untill the bills are sent out in April, however everyone is primed to set up petitions to take to Council that I as a City Councillor will then be able to speak on.
 
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: pol and mick on March 11, 2009, 01:20
If these new charges were enforced.Would it be an idea to tell the water companies where to put their bills,ask them to disconect the mains water supply and invest in a compost toilet.The water companies might think twice then about enforcing these high costs.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on March 13, 2009, 17:14
I was talking to the portfolio holder who has reponsibility for allotments on our Council yesterday about the problems I highlighted at our last Council meeting.

He has asked that United Utilities are investigated about just what they are charging for, ie. water only or charges for sewer connection as well   (that we don't have).

The issuing of bills has been put on hold for the moment until the results of the investigation are known.

He is also looking at the possibility of fitting a water meter to sites, one meter for the full site not each allotment.

He will be coming back to me before anything like that happens though.


I'll let you know when I know more.


Donald Cape

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: argaric on March 14, 2009, 10:57
Signed petition and had a look at UU web site.
They state "We will measure the total floor area of the whole site to be drained in square metres, and automatically discount any permeable or other excluded areas within the site boundary. The actual chargeable area that will be used to generate charges may therefore be less than the total site area measurement."

Also in their Glossary of Terms "Chargeable Area – the total area, within a site, of non-permeable surfaces from which surface water or groundwater drains directly or indirectly to a public sewer. It comprises the whole site less any qualifying excluded areas."

This would appear to mean that for the calcualtion of site area they should exclude all of the plot areas (i.e. where we grow things) from the calculation.

I will write to my MP and get in touch with my council (I have just paid the bill £19.25 comprising £5.50 rent, £1.00 water charges and £12.75 Miscellaneous charges) so I will be asking if the misc charges include any of this new "Rain Tax".

Regards,
  Aragric
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Aunt Sally on March 14, 2009, 11:01
We have no hard areas on our site it's all either plots or grass paths so that would mean to me a chargable area of zero.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: lottienewbie on March 17, 2009, 16:02
Right guys i have had a response from my MP,who is very good at responding to me.
Ofwat have recommended that the way utility companys may charge for the rising cost of treating surface water drainage and sewage as these costs are like everything else rising,with this in place they hope that builders when building new homes will make a provision to use soak aways rather than relying on connecting to the main drainage system,

The points i have raised are shared by my MP regarding the impact it may have on the area,but his understanding of the new system of charging is at the discretion of the water company in your area,and is in response to guidance issued by DEFRA,but he has written to the minister responsible outlining my concerns and will be in touch with me with more information as and when he has it,and i know he is true to his word as i have had issues in the past,which he has indeed followed up on.

  I hope other people are following my route and calling their MP regarding this matter??

i do hope this info is of some use to you all???

regards Neil.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on March 29, 2009, 12:33
More info about my previous post, copied below (how do you do the quote thing I copied and pasted is that right) regardingthe water meters.
The portfolio holder in question said that fitting water meters was probably going to be too costly. Guess what? I've checked on our site and there is a meter already fitted.
I've taken a reading today 29th March ( the water is still turned off) and I'll take another at the end of the season when it's been turned off again . Then I'll be able to see how much a gallon we are being charged.




I was talking to the portfolio holder who has reponsibility for allotments on our Council yesterday about the problems I highlighted at our last Council meeting.
He has asked that United Utilities are investigated about just what they are charging for, ie. water only or charges for sewer connection as well   (that we don't have).
The issuing of bills has been put on hold for the moment until the results of the investigations are known.

He is also looking at the possibility of fitting a water meter to sites, one meter for the full site not each allotment.

He will be coming back to me before anything like that happens though.
I'll let you know when I know more.
Donald Cape
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Joan Kennedy on April 06, 2009, 07:04
I raised this at our committee last night and passed on details of e-petition.  We are also in the north west and have an account with UU.  Our water bill for the last quarter is 51% up fron the same in 2008 - but admittedly affordable at £17.61.  We agreed that the surface water charge should be paid seperately, but with a letter of protest and declaration that we intend to dispute the fairness of the charge.

Thanks very, very much to tinbasher for raising this crucial issue.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on April 06, 2009, 07:51
I raised this at our committee last night and passed on details of e-petition.  We are also in the north west and have an account with UU.  Our water bill for the last quarter is 51% up fron the same in 2008 - but admittedly affordable at £17.61.  We agreed that the surface water charge should be paid seperately, but with a letter of protest and declaration that we intend to dispute the fairness of the charge.

Thanks very, very much to tinbasher for raising this crucial issue.

Whilst your bill went up by 51% last year remember it was a wet summer.  Our allotment's water bill was about a third of the previous year.  Consequently, if your usage was the same as ours, your bill could have been about 600% of the previous year!
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Tinbasher on April 12, 2009, 11:59
just read some (i know its cheating but its a bit hard to digest all of it) of the thread...not impressed... will be getting onto my lottie lot to see what they know and point them in the right direction. I have signed the petition and will see if i can rally some more people onto it....

Thanks to everyone.  I see there are now 817 signatories to this petition, so steadily growing after a slow start.  I've been telling everyone I know who has an internet connection, family, friends, amateur sports people and of course anyone connected with gardening.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Yorkie on May 03, 2009, 14:38
I also signed the bigger, churches / sports club petition, and have now received a response:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19160
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: John on May 03, 2009, 17:37
I also signed the bigger, churches / sports club petition, and have now received a response:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19160

OK, now can you tell us what the reply means?  ???

It's in government double-speak.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mumofstig on May 03, 2009, 17:42
I think it means take it up with OFWAT, or the water company.
In other words........nothing to do with us >:(
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on May 06, 2009, 00:07
I think it means take it up with OFWAT, or the water company.
In other words........nothing to do with us >:(

I think you are spot on.... it appears just to offer information.... with, surprisingly, some level of understand for the situation...

I think it says... - "Yep... that's where Offthing comes in - to protect consumers but it is not our job at them moment to be concerned"........ There is no offer of any help what-so-ever.

Brush hands of the whole mess...

Isn't privatisation a wonderful thing?  :tongue2: What was once everyone’s now belongs to just a few and we have no chance of choosing an alternative supplier. Ours is to pay up (and increase the share holders' profits) and put up or tell Offthing we are not happy and they can slowly wait to see who else is going to kick up a dust before deciding whether to ignore the situation or react supportively.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: richyrich7 on May 06, 2009, 12:03
Yeah but it was the blooming secretary of state that recommended ofwat endorse this course of action  ::) :mad: or did they conveniently forget that  ;)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Green-fingered Man on May 14, 2009, 20:39
This is shocking. 

Does it apply to Scotland, too, or just England?
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on May 21, 2009, 19:34
Latest on the Water Rates in Carlisle. Since speaking on this in the March Council meeting  our water rates have been reduced to £9 per plot per year. The reason it has gone up from £4 per year is because there are "are to many leaks and United Utilities have put the rates up" according to the officer who looks after the billing etc.

The Council called a meeting of plotholders to discuss forming an Association to run our site ourselves. I didn't attend because I would have had to declare an interest being an Elected Member and that would "tie my hands " in the future. I believe some of the young ladies on the site are quite keen to do the administration work, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. I'll have a word with some of the other allotment holders in Carlisle who are already running their sites as an Association.

What does anyone out there think. According to some of the people who attended the meeting the cost would be the same but we could do our own improvements ie running extra water supplies to plots etc.
Any comments from people who are part of an Association would be welcome.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: John on May 22, 2009, 18:42
Self managed and funded has the advantage of control being on the site but that depends on members being willing to do some extra work.

In my experience very few people actually get out there and do something (apart from moan about those who do)

The finances need looking at carefully as well - often councils pay for things that aren't on the individual site's budget.

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Yorkie on May 22, 2009, 23:01
John has really described some of ethe pro's and con's of being self-managed.

I would vote against self-management every time.  In addition to the financial side of things, the independent advice and input of the council officer is a valuable protection against cliques or disillusionment forming at committee level, and also when it comes to decisions about tenancy enforcement / termination / allocation.  Initial enthusiasm often palls to reluctance when life gets busy.

Do not underestimate the amount of paperwork involved in a larger site.  Also how much extra things cost - running water pipes and standpipes can be quite expensive, particularly if the size of the water pipes is not great or the water pressure needs upping to cope with the increased water flow.

It's not clear whether the pressure for self-management came from the Council or the lotties but I'd be very wary as an allotment holder if the council was wanting to divest itself of the hassle of running the site.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: donald.cape on May 23, 2009, 12:31
Thanks for that Yorkie 1, I'm probably better off being able to have an input without being curtailed in any way as I would be if it's agreed on.
Most of the plotholders in my part of the site are dead against it, the way things work at the moment are OK, if it's not broken don't fix it comes to mind.

I'm pretty sure the council are trying to get rid of their responsibilities as you said, I'll let you know what's  happened after the next meeting. Iv'e checked with the coucil's Legal Department and they say it's OK for me to attend.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Green-fingered Man on May 23, 2009, 12:57
Scotland's water isn't privatised yet, so it doesn't apply to us.

I looked into allotments recently.  We don't have any at all where I live, but we do have an allotment association.  The council is looking into finding areas for us.  We have an allotment association who will run the allotments (this is a good thing NOW because without them the council wouldn't bother looking for the land to give us). 

But you have to join the allotment association and pay the membership fee to get your name on the waiting list.  There are 74 names on the waiting list, and the council has said the first sight will only have 30 allotments, as a trial.

I am reluctant to part with my £12 as it appears to be non-refundable.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Tinbasher on June 08, 2009, 18:35
Well I see there are over 800 signatures now on the petition against these charges. 

I've been to Utd Utilities website again recently and now learn that these site area charges for rainfall have been suspended for:

places of worship
scouts and guides
community amateur sports clubs (subject to Inland Revenue confirmation that they are - or do qualify to be - CASCs.  An application form needs to be completed for CASCs.

Having said that the charges are only suspended temporarily, whilst UU are thinking up a new strategy to deal with these groups.  As it is, the suspension comes into force from April 1st 2009, whereby all these groups will revert to charges based on Rateable Value as they did before Site Area Charges were introduced.  Punishingly however, all monies owed for 2008/9 (site area based) still have to be paid - there is to be no refund for what is obviously an unfair (proven as they have been forced to re-think) scheme.

However, no such suspension of charges for allotments despite the growing petition.  It's very sad.

There is a number to ring on the UU website for queries about Site Area charging.  It is 0800 074 0171.  I rung it this morning to enquire and first had to give our account number, my name, direct line phone number, my position in the 'business' (as she termed it).  Finally I got around to asking if there were any plans to suspend the charges for allotments.  Basically 'NO' and then.............. have we thought about setting up a Direct debit?    >:(

Anyway further research on the website also reveals the following:

Band 3 - 2008/9 - £272 for Highway Drainage; 2009/10 - now £290

Band 5 - 2008/9 - £1290 for HD; 2009/10 - now £1378

Band 6 - 2008/9 - £2867 for HD; 2009/10 - now £3062

Band 11 - 2008/9 - £35,843 for HD; 2009/10 - now £38,280

These are examples of some of the bands, but all band areas have risen, as I knew they would.  And next year they will rise again, and again, and again and so forth.

What more can we do?
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: BrianK on June 08, 2009, 21:41
Okay   sudden idea

Set up a charitable trust to manage the plots
Might get exemption. :blink:
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: A. Fallowfield on July 21, 2009, 14:53
Well, after ploughing my way through this thread, all I can say is,
PHEW!
Thanks for small mercies!

(http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp141/Flatters_photos/river.jpg)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on July 22, 2009, 01:12
Scotland's water isn't privatised yet, so it doesn't apply to us.

I looked into allotments recently.  We don't have any at all where I live, but we do have an allotment association.  The council is looking into finding areas for us.  We have an allotment association who will run the allotments (this is a good thing NOW because without them the council wouldn't bother looking for the land to give us). 

But you have to join the allotment association and pay the membership fee to get your name on the waiting list.  There are 74 names on the waiting list, and the council has said the first sight will only have 30 allotments, as a trial.

I am reluctant to part with my £12 as it appears to be non-refundable.

I'd ask for more details and about what happens to the £12.... and I think I'd pay up for a chance to get a plot... once you've had a plot £12 would be a relatively small price to get another one... even if there's a risk involved.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on September 09, 2009, 15:43
Having been advised by "No. 10" of the result today of the petition, which doesn't even mention allotments despite that being one of the main reasons for the petition, I have lost faith especially as I started to read the report (200+ pages) only to find that on the contents page it shows:-


"Properties were metering is not feasible Page 87". 


How much faith can we have in the rest of the report if the individual, who the Government, i.e. us, will have paid vast sums of money to (+ expenses!) if she doesn't know the difference between "were and where"?  :tongue2: :mad: :( >:(

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on September 09, 2009, 16:01
 :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: So the report asks you to send any enquiries to:-

 chargingreview@defra.gsi.gov.uk

and what happens when you send an email, it bounces back as failed!!!  Now sent an email direct to Defra who have a target of replying to all emails within 15 working days!
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: madcat on September 09, 2009, 16:11
Have pity on the poor author!  Typos happen - particularly at the incredible speed these things are written (usually by some junior/middling grade person burning the midnight oil) once the policy and approach has been (slowly) decided by their seniors and betters.  Then the number of people who 'comment' and 'review', means the poor report gets hacked all over the place before it goes to the Minister to eventually approve it.   Sometimes it is a miracle that the grammar ever hangs together or the sentances are in any sort of logical order.

Yes - I have been one of those people, and no doubt will be again!  This one wasn't me, though!  <Goes back under stone   :( >
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Aunt Sally on September 09, 2009, 16:32
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20493

As clear as mud regarding allotments  >:(
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: tode on September 09, 2009, 16:38
Sorry to sound ignorant, but does everone have a water meter in UK, or does it still work on the rates?
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on September 09, 2009, 16:49
Not everyone has a water meter however the issue here is that the water companies want to charge people for the rainwater that lands on their land as it runs off into streams/rivers (unless we use it on allotments to water our plants) and the water companies have to purify the water before selling it back to us!
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: tode on September 09, 2009, 16:55
Yes I get their reasoning: its because a plot of beans and lettuce will really pollute the water, unlike a factory, or the roads, or ........

Will they slap a charge on the agricultural land as well ?  That would be very costly
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on September 09, 2009, 20:31
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20493

As clear as mud regarding allotments  >:(

I've just searched through Anna Walker's 204 page interim report and "allotments" are not mentioned anywhere.

Using "surface" for a keyword search I am also unable to find any reference to recommendations that look to me as if there will be any changes in charging policy for surface area drainage where there is currently no drainage into the sewage system.

My Allotment Holders Association has no surface water or foul water drainage at all so is unconnected to mains sewage pipes.

As far as I am aware our water supply is not metered.

This topic does not seem to be one that has either alarmed or concerned my local Allotment Holders Association committee.... we're not a rich organisation so we presumably believe there will be no changes to the way charging takes place in the immediate future.


What does everyone else make of the report?
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: mikem on September 09, 2009, 21:01
But the response from Downing Street says:-

"Ofwat advocated a move towards site area-based charging for non-household customers, so that each customer pays a fair share for the load imposed on the drainage system.  Many water companies are now moving towards surface water drainage charging based on site area.

It is for individual companies to set their own charging schemes and for Ofwat as the independent economic regulator to approve them.

The Government supports site area charging for surface water drainage in principle."
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on September 09, 2009, 21:33
But the response from Downing Street says:-

"Ofwat advocated a move towards site area-based charging for non-household customers, so that each customer pays a fair share for the load imposed on the drainage system.  Many water companies are now moving towards surface water drainage charging based on site area.

It is for individual companies to set their own charging schemes and for Ofwat as the independent economic regulator to approve them.

The Government supports site area charging for surface water drainage in principle."

That's lovely...... "area based charging for non-household based customers."

So without connection to the sewage system you are not a non-household based customer no matter how big your area is.

It would be similar to me receiving a bill from a gas company when I do not receive a gas supply. Are the forestry commission expecting to pay for remote areas of land where there is no surface water drainage provision which connects to a sewer?

Paying a fair share of the load based on the drainage system does sound fair.... if you in any way contribute to that load in your use of a particular allotment. Mine doesn't.


PS Nice red - I got told off for using blue as it's hard for some of us to read, apparently.  ;)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Oliver on September 11, 2009, 09:48
.... response from Downing Street ...

Having 'stood up to 'officialdom' against  the sale of allotment land for building (and won), experience tells me that one does not give up at the first sign of a set back or gobbledegook from some faceless bod. Officialdom will always give one a load of flannel, thinking we are too dim to understand the small print. Well perhaps we are. But the Downing Street response does not mention allotments -

The petition clearly stated "... non-household users that are not businesses, including community facilities (which will include such as allotments, sports grounds etc), places of worship, charities and voluntary bodies..."

they say: " it is clearly wrong if customers such as faith buildings, community sports clubs and scout huts are facing increases in their bills ". 

 I say it is clearly wrong that the writer has selectively extracted 'suitable' words but ignored the fundamental reason for the petition. 

So the question is what to do now? Communicate with the writer and point our that our question has not been addressed, and what are they going to do about it? Nearly 1000 people signed up to this. I would like to see in words of one syllable, that allotments will not be charged for surface water drainage, because the water does not drain away to water company supplied drains.  We are more concerned about keeping it on the plot to water our crops.

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on September 11, 2009, 20:57
.... response from Downing Street ...

Having 'stood up to 'officialdom' against  the sale of allotment land for building (and won), experience tells me that one does not give up at the first sign of a set back or gobbledegook from some faceless bod. Officialdom will always give one a load of flannel, thinking we are too dim to understand the small print. Well perhaps we are. But the Downing Street response does not mention allotments -

The petition clearly stated "... non-household users that are not businesses, including community facilities (which will include such as allotments, sports grounds etc), places of worship, charities and voluntary bodies..."

they say: " it is clearly wrong if customers such as faith buildings, community sports clubs and scout huts are facing increases in their bills ". 

 I say it is clearly wrong that the writer has selectively extracted 'suitable' words but ignored the fundamental reason for the petition. 

So the question is what to do now? Communicate with the writer and point our that our question has not been addressed, and what are they going to do about it? Nearly 1000 people signed up to this. I would like to see in words of one syllable, that allotments will not be charged for surface water drainage, because the water does not drain away to water company supplied drains.  We are more concerned about keeping it on the plot to water our crops.



An excellent response and suggestion........ So who is drafting the question that we can all consider signing?
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Ice on September 28, 2009, 20:25
There has apparently been a reprieve.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8279467.stm
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: richyrich7 on September 28, 2009, 20:30
 :D  Great bit of news Ice, thanks  :D :D
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: John on September 28, 2009, 23:28
The nasty Labour government passed this law but if we vote for Labour at the next election then they'll repeal the nasty law.. hmmm, this could change politics as we know them. Sorry, cynical, me??

Just once they could stand up and say 'we didn't think it through when we drafted this law' but they never do.

Oh, just in case anyone has the wrong impression - I'm not party political.


Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on September 29, 2009, 00:47
That really is going to be good news to many ears...

Now I wont be quite so moany when our warden turns the taps off in October!

Reminder: I must remember to take some drinking water for the kettle!

Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: peterjf on October 06, 2009, 10:31
here in darkest east yorkshire ,

we just started being charged £5-00 per annum extra for water,

we pay £25-00 to rent the plot (250 sq yards) ,

not a bad price,

but the water charge can be amended if people abuse the water usage
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: peterjf on January 09, 2010, 13:58
Hull city council already charging us plot keepers an extra £5-00 per 250 sq yds plot , i have 2 plots , so get charged extra £ 10-00 each year, we dont like the extra charges but what can you do
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on January 09, 2010, 21:39
The rent for my 1.5 plots (12 rod) is already £45 a year... I'm not sure I'd appreciate another tenner on top of that  :(
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Jonajo on January 10, 2010, 13:25
I have to say I wouldnt want an increase on our water supply (currently £5 per year - but there are taps every 20m or so which is incredibly convenient) but if it happens, so be it. At the end of the day it is not expensive running an allotment and the sheer amount of ££ saved each year with grown produce (even considering start up costs and costs of seeds etc) far outweighs this slight negative.

But then having a plot for the enjoyment of it is priceless.
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on January 12, 2010, 00:05

But then having a plot for the enjoyment of it is priceless.

Never a truer word!  ;)
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Thamesmeadhammer on March 02, 2010, 14:06
plenty of water on mine at the moment !!! :D
Title: Re: Water Charges Threat to Allotments
Post by: Paul Plots on March 03, 2010, 01:14
plenty of water on mine at the moment !!! :D
Grab some of it into a water-butt for the summer drought & hose-pipe ban  ::)