[cousdude]

Has anybody tried permaculture to grow veg and the like?

I saw an section on a program a couple of weeks ago about it - theres some stuff on the internet but doesn't seem to be masses.

It seems a bit mixed in with sustainability etc, but I liked the forest garden idea of it - its like having a forest, but choosing the species so that they all give you fruit, or berries, or veg etc - with all the plants helping to contribute to the forest/woodland ecosystem at the same time. You can also add plants that birds and animals like - as attracting birds etc help the ecosystem thrive and help with nutrients cycling etc.

Seems a great idea if you can manage it, not sure an allotment officer would believe you if you let your plot turning into a woodland and you argued it was permaculture...

The program I'm refering to is here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hs8zp/Natural_World_20082009_A_Farm_for_the_Future/

[woodburner]

Trees even fruit trees are not allowed on most allotments. However, There is a tree on the edge of my plot, (and it's surrounded on three sides by trees and overgrown hedges), and the council are not interested in removing it, so I am pretty well bound to try it!
On the plus side this opens the door to all sorts of other trees.
There's a hazel 'thicket' just the other side of the bourne, and one of it's branches reaches right over my plot, I wonder if it 'accidentally' gets pinned to the ground, and grows into another thicket, will they ask me if I can love that too? Oh and there's an elderberry too, I was going to dig it out, but as they don't mind a great big birch(?) they can't really object to my not dealing with that either. Oh and down by the bourne would be perfect for growing basket willows . . .
Raspberries like a bit of shade so they can go nicely in the shadiest parts, and I'm going to try underplanting with the dwarf comfrey that is spreading in my garden.
I want to grow all sorts of rabbit proof flowers in the 6" strip around the rabbit fence. I have nearly 20 suitable plants in my garden that should do well on the lottie too as it's got similar soil and light levels.
I think that's the gist of it isn't it? Biodiversity, with a bit of selection so that everything has a place and a function. They didn't go into specifics, but clearly if you are growing veg in proximity to trees, you need to grow shade loving things in the woodland edge and reserve the sunniest for those that need sun. I'm trying to find out more but it all seems very closed off from public domain, you have to go on courses or at the very least buy books.

[GreenOwl]

I'm trying to find out more but it all seems very closed off from public domain, you have to go on courses or at the very least buy books.

Yes, I feel the information is not very accessible.  The other thing is that it has sprung up from Australia which of course is generally much sunnier and warmer than us (I know its a big place and thats a generalisation) so planting in shade may not be such a big deal there.  I would love to see details on how what you would grow on a permaculture plot in the UK.

[peapod]

Some links to sites and courses here may help

http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/permaculture/
http://www.brightonpermaculture.co.uk/courses_events/ppg.html
http://www.brightonpermaculture.co.uk/courses_events/forestgarden.html
http://www.aranyagardens.co.uk/Slideshows/Guiding%20principles/Stacking%202.htm


If you need any more info then I can pass on your email address to my tutor who's husband runs a successful permaculture project in my hometown (Offshoots at Towneley Hall)

Paula

[woodburner]

Thanks for that last link especially, peapod. I think I'm on the right track. A lot of my ideas for things to do with my garden also fit in very well. (Chooks, ash coppice, fruit trees and bushes, wormery and compost heaps, solar drier, solar oven, etc. )  :happy:

[woodburner]

Who else is going to give it a go? Other than me obviously.
I've found a much more practical rather than philosophically oriented site: http://www.pfaf.org/index.php For some reaason it wasn't loading the other day and I thought it had shut down, but it's definitely still there

[WebSiteEvo]

I am in the process of converting my garden into a forest garden, but I leaving the traditional vegetable patch in place for now.

I have had good success from current and gooseberry bushes growing under young Apple and Pair trees with strawberries as ground cover. There are still some strawberries appearing even now! and they are spreading extremely quickly. Mulched with leafs, coffee grounds and grass cuttings + any weeds that come up.

My next project is to plant a hazel hedge and after that I plan to plant wild garlic and chives under a hedge thats already established.

The only organic matter that leaves the garden is for eating and I try to add more than whats taken. I have also increased the amount of mulching I do on the vegetable patch which has definitely improved the soil. 

I am in the process of reading "How to Make a Forest Garden" by Patrick Whitefield, which I highly recommend.

[SG6]

The program was on twice about 6 and 8 months back. If I recall the person who had set himself up as "permaculture" had 7 acres. Also it was never said that he was self sufficent at all. I did notice in the program that this was simply not mentioned. Which for the reason of interviewing the person and the program I would have thought that if he was then it would have highlighted.

Looked at this some (lots) years back and permaculture did not seem to be a grow for production approach. If I recall it was something along the lines of the 7 layers of permaculture. In that you developed/planted such that produce were grown at several levels in an area. Nothing at all that could be described as intensive or in modern terms highly productive.

At the end permaculture was interesting but seemed to be more a "gardening" approach not a crop production system. I say this as in you did get a crop but not at the level needed for year round sustainability.

It is as it says "culture" and that does not mean large crops from a small area.

I did like the programme but for the cattle feeding aspects that a womans father (possibly grandfather) had set up and was found to be a sustainable planting of a grass mix for feeding cattle without the great need for bringing them inside in the winter.

[richyrich7]

Try here http://www.permaculture-magazine.co.uk/ we used to have the mag and it was really good, I got into the idea of it after reading about Michael Guerra and his back garden that was producing the equivalent to 13.5 tonnes per acre !!
http://www.permaculture-magazine.co.uk/articles/archive/article_34.html

I stopped having the mag a few years back as it went through a "political" phase,&  I'm allergic to politics