Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: keeper on August 11, 2014, 12:52
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I took this garden over last year and it had been a garden . but not for about 8 to 10 yrs . My wife and I spent all last year clearing it with chain saw/strimmer and eventually a hayter mower I got on ebay for £100 , best £100 I ever spent !! On the veg. area, which is almost allotment size, I used Glyphosate 3 or 4 times at least until I had got rid of enough , mainly nettles, to starting planting this spring. I have where possible as the potatoes and onions and such has come out, and cleared large areas, run over it with the mower to take the tops off any weeds to stop flowering and seed being set.
My plan was to spray again this back end and maybe next spring , I am not against Glyphosate as I would not have been able to clear without it after such a long period without any management, but the mower has made a good job and what I am getting to is, if I keep cutting hard and then rotovate this back-end will it save spraying.
Sorry, to be a bit long-winded , but I wanted to point out how neglected it was.
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I think it depends what your problem weeds are. It would probably work for most broadleaf weeds such as nettle, thistles and docks as they would eventually run out of energy if you did the mowing and rotavating regularly enough, but if you have couch grass or small leafed bindweed then I don't think it would be very effective as grass is quite happy with being mower and bindweed is a low growing plant. Both regrow from small bits of root.
What are your problem weeds?
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If you're not against glyphosphate, given it's pros and cons, then the simple answer is use it, according to it's instructions.
Contrary to some belief, glyphosphate doesn't cure a weed problem into the future, it just knocks it back half a year. There's years worth of nature there just waiting their turn. Consequently a lot of people find themselves using it on a regular basis, with all it's pitfalls. Digging and weeding is the best answer, especially where food is to be grown, but that depends on the amount of land concerned.
Apart from that, I wouldn't have thought mowing weeds was the way forward for anything, other than a temporary initial control measure prior to some form of tilling/digging.
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I would continue to keep it under control with glyphosate and thoroughly dig over a bit at a time to remoce the perenial weed roots.
That may take you a few years depending how keen and able you are at digging. But do NOT use a rotovator until you have dealt with the perennial weeds.
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Several observations from hard experience:
When I retired, well semi-retired, four years ago, I fenced off about three-quarters of an acre of our field which had been used as animal grazing or pasture for the whole of living memory. I turned about two thirds of this into a mown paddock for my wife to use as a dog-agility course and used the rest for a large polytunnel and adjacent veg plot.
Despite fortnightly mowing, the agility course is still full of docks and plantain amongst the grass and I know that, if ever I stopped mowing , within a month they'd be competing with the grass.
The veg and polytunnel part I cleared with glyphosate at the same time, four years ago and by hand-weeding, hoeing and further applications of glyphosate have kept reasonably weed-free. However, I got lazy and failed to weed it for about a month in early summer this year. It looked as if it had never been cultivated by the time I stirred myself to clear it.
So based on my experience, mowing as a means of weed-control is pretty useless and on hitherto uncultivated land, weed seeds are still active four years after clearing it annually
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i'm not really a fan of rotavating to get rid of weeds, in fact i find it just spreads them around.
the only real answer is to keep digging as much of the weeds and their roots up, ideally when they are still quite small and haven't got as much of a root system.
obviously on a large area it is almost impossible as by time you get to the last bit it has prob been taken over by weeds. and by time you've finished you need to start again.
weed suppressant and mulching have been my preferred methods. when you're able to, take the weed suppressant up in small patches for a couple of weeks and thoroughly dig as much of the weeds out as you can and mulch over the top.
every year it should get easier and more manageable.
everyone seems to have different views, each to their own i guess.
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I would use glyphosate. Let the weeds get a bit of leaf on them before you do it.
The soil will have a lot od weed seeds which will keep on coming. As the years go on they will become less.
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Thanks for all the suggestions, as most replies seem to suggest ,I will carry on with the Glyphosate. As I said I have already sprayed it off and then let it green over, then sprayed again 4 or 5 times in 2013.
In spring this year it was covered again almost exclusively with " Mayweed " and I knocked this back , rotovated then planted up.
Nobbie the weeds this year are Docks , Mayweed and only a few Nettles with a little Grass and as I said I have been topping these as they flowered , the Mayweed especially , I have also pulled and hoed where needed. It was this that led me to believe that I could maybe get away with cutting and rotovating . I think AlaninCarlisle & 3579Allen that , as you point out, I will have to keep going till over the years it will get it better.
Thanks To All.
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With me on the allotment, with the exception of (mares, horsetails) perennial weeds are not a problem, it is the annual ones that sneak in when my back is turned!
I have killed them of with the original Glyphosate, the new stuff is almost worse than useless, coloured water maybe!
As I am not bothered by grass seedlings, I use Verdone it kills weed seedlings very quickly and is much cheaper than Glyphosate or Weedol!
And I also use the trusty hoe!
Cheers!
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Verdone should not be used where veg is grown it contains clopyralid, and will ruin your soil, it causes stunted growth and misformed leaves :ohmy:
It is particularly damaging to peas, tomatoes and sunflowers and can render potatoes, lettuce and spinach inedible.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopyralid
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google white vinegar weedkiller.
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I looked into the vinegar thing and it seems that that also kills your soil. It apparently works by increasing the acidity of the soil to a point where nothing grows (including worms and other beneficial life) and takes years to neutralise.
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I have a similar problem on a huge and badly neglected garden. What do others think about simply waiting till the autumn and then covering the whole area with thick black plastic, then maybe rotovating in the spring before planting?
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It sounds like you have a bit of a mission on your hand there.
If you have perennial weeds, just covering them for the winter won't be long enough to kill them completely. The problem with rotovating perennial weeds is that it chops the roots into small pieces and spreads them around to re-grow.
You could lift the plastic bit by bit next year and dig over the areas to remove weed roots. Or you could see what regrows and use glyphosate, leave it to work and then rotovate :)
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Verdone should not be used where veg is grown it contains clopyralid, and will ruin your soil, it causes stunted growth and misformed leaves :ohmy:
It is particularly damaging to peas, tomatoes and sunflowers and can render potatoes, lettuce and spinach inedible.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopyralid
I sometimes wonder if many of the clopyralid manure damage cases reported on here are in fact composted grass mowings where the grass has been treated with Verdone, if not direct perhaps via Council green waste schemes.
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I would use glyphosate. Let the weeds get a bit of leaf on them before you do it.
The soil will have a lot od weed seeds which will keep on coming. As the years go on they will become less.
I was originally, going to keep using Glyphosate, after my original clearing with it and ,unusually for me being patient, waiting a year before planting. It has been interesting though to get the different viewpoints, and has made me realise I need to be patient still and keep doing what I am doing, as I will get on top of it eventually.
I have also, decided for this year to clear where possible, and leave just the Leeks and Parsnips in place and rest the plot and give me a chance to spray before back-end and next Spring.
Thanks again for the ideas.
edit to fix quote
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The simple one for me is I grow food in my garden, so don't want to use things that will affect the food I eat.
I do use occasional spot on Glycophospate for the odd 'persistent begger', otherwise it's pulling, hoeing, digging and delving!
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Hi Mum,
I have quoted Salmo in my reply , but somehow my reply is in the quote ??
Have I done something wrong.? ???
Keeper
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Hi Mum,
I have quoted Salmo in my reply , but somehow my reply is in the quote ??
Have I done something wrong.? ???
Keeper
It's easily done, and I have to put a lot of quotes right, so don't worry ;)
When you want to add comments after a quote make sure you start typing after the final [ / quote] brackets
sometimes you have to go down in the reply box to find them, though.
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You've all forgotten the old rule that says one year's seeds is seven year's weeds. Docks and plantains are both very generous indeed with their seeds. Rosebay willowherb is another of the gang (but that's very pretty) but it grows on running roots like nettles. And once the roots get going then you have the originals and their offspring in all three cases. We won't talk of dandelions then. ;)
That's before we start on weeds on strings - nettles and bindweed and rosebay willowherb.
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Verdone should not be used where veg is grown it contains clopyralid, and will ruin your soil, it causes stunted growth and misformed leaves :ohmy:
It is particularly damaging to peas, tomatoes and sunflowers and can render potatoes, lettuce and spinach inedible.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopyralid
Thanks for the info!
So far I have not had a problem, but will not use it again on the cultivated bits!
Cheers!
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Hi Mum,
I have quoted Salmo in my reply , but somehow my reply is in the quote ??
Have I done something wrong.? ???
Keeper
When you want to add comments after a quote make sure you start typing after the final [ / quote] brackets
sometimes you have to go down in the reply box to find them, though.
You mean like this I hope , Thanks Mum. :)
Christine, I have not forgotten that's why I am trying to make sure they don't seed this year.
Edit - nearly Keeper - you partially deleted the final [/quote] (leaving just "[/ )" ;)
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Re: weed control without chemicals - this took us two, two days of steady work five or six years ago... there's still one comfrey plant that comes up in the middle - he's in the carrots this year
(http://chat.allotment-garden.org/gallery/10708_21_02_13_1_31_08.jpeg)
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I bet it's taken an awful lot of hoeing/weeding to keep it clear though :lol:
Weeding really isn't something that gets done just the once, is it ;)
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Well after much furgling through the depths of google, and chuntering in the lotty shop on the range of methods available and their various foibles I have come to the conclusion that there is only one true effective way of chemical free weed control!!!!! Tear the little sods out by their roots
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I have the solution to my weed problem! All it needs is for everyone on this site to come to my place for a day and dig up four weeds each. Problem solved. I will provide tea/coffee/biscuits.
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I have the solution to my weed problem! All it needs is for everyone on this site to come to my place for a day and dig up four weeds each. Problem solved. I will provide tea/coffee/biscuits.
Are you nearby?
I'm on my way for tea and biccies :D
Joking aside - regular hand weeding is the best way to get on top of your perennial and annual weeds.
10 years ago when I got my plot I had big problem with creeping buttercup which only needs a teeny weeny bit of root to make a spectacular comeback. ::)
Now it only appears in one spot now and then.
The annuals come up easily with handweeding, and if you catch them pre seeding, you clear the problem - it doesn't however stop weed seeds blowing in from other plots/being dropped by birds etc. ;)
So I'd get the serious weeds under control with good digging and glyphosate to start, then just regular hand weeding ;) :)
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My allotment was overgrown with lots of weed seeds in it when I got it last season. On one patch I planted spuds which helped supress the weeds and I dug out any remaining perennials when I dug the spuds. As I didn't need the ground i just lightly rotorvated it every couple weeks so that plenty of the existing seeds germinate before I sow anything next year. At least I'll have a chance of spotting my seedling amounst the weeds :)
I may be getting another plot which is overgrown with thistles and meadowsweet. I think my plan there will be to strim the top growth right down to the ground and let it dry where it is. I'll then go over it with a flamegun to burn this off and hopefully destroy most of the weed seeds on the surface before disturbing the soil and burying them. After that it's back to Glyphoste to deal with perennials, but if I was 'organic' then a thorough dig should have much the same effect.
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Sounds like a good plan Nobbie :)
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Any plot that is left for a few weeks will have weeds.
I would use glyphosate on an allotment that has been badly neglected, but would not want to spray regularly.
As an area becomes free of a crop I thoroughly dig it over and that keeps the weeds under control.
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If you are not able/inclined/have time to hand dig and remove the weeds then I think that woven weed suppressing fabric is the answer. Hand digging will help a lot though :)
I used Glyphosate at the outset to kill the grass where I wanted to make my vegetable plot (and the local farmer ploughed it, and I then rotavated to get it under way). Glyphosate isn't much use once the crops are planted ... and if you have plenty of weed seed in the ground that's going to germinate through the year and compete with the crops as well as needing your time to hoe/hand weed.
I have 4' wide "beds". Mine are raised - originally just by digging out the paths and heaping the soil on the "beds" so they were slightly raised (so called "lazy raised beds"), but the lowered paths additionally assisted with drainage [heavy clay here], latterly I have found time & materials to properly frame the beds with timber boards.
I use a 1.5M width roll of Mypex (or similar - needs to be woven and UV stabilised) which neatly fits the bed. I have one "piece" for each crop - so the "+"-shaped plant slits in it are reusable next season. Its a bit of a hassle to label and keep all the Mypex crop-sections organised ready for use next year, and it takes longer to plant then just chucking the seeds/plants in the ground ... but then there is no further weeding maintenance for the season - and reduced watering. I've got a couple of chums who are also recently converted to obsessive Mypex allotmenting!! and we, somewhat subjectively, think we are getting heavier crops.
I put the Black Mypex down as soon as winter is over - i.e. I let the winter into the soil during the winter, or plant Green Manure, but as temperatures rise and weeds start thinking about making a start I cover the beds up. I expect that the black colour of the Mypex attracts some (maybe best part of not very much though?!!) heat into the soil.
I raise [pretty much all] my vegetables in 9cm pots and plant out. This allows me to do the seed-sowing thing indoors during the evenings in late Winter / early Spring and not have to worry about fine weather coinciding with when I have time available for sowing outdoors. This also means that when I plant out it has a 6 weeks, or so, head start on anything else in the bed. Not so much of a benefit with Mypex, but without Mypex that alone used to make a huge difference ... hoe off the bed, plant and the weeds are then 6 weeks behind the plants (compared to sowing a row of seed).
I plant with a bulb planter - which neatly fits my 9cm pots, and is less taxing for my arthritic hands/wrists than a trowel.
However, I've been growing veg for yonks, I plant the exact same (pretty much!) Qty of each veg each year, so my pieces of crop-specific Mypex are easily resuable, for me, year-after-year. Having said that when I made them originally I allowed a "Bit extra" on the end in case I want to plant a few more plants one year, and if not the extra bit is just bunched up at the end of that section.
The Mypex is held down with some U-shaped clips/staples made from old wire coat-hangers (they are much wider, compared to the length of their "prongs", than a "U" would imply)
My mates are using this for crops like Parsnips, but I think it makes harvesting them difficult so I don't use it for that, or Carrots, and I prefer to earth up my Spuds, but off the top of my head I can't think of anything else that is now NOT grown through Mypex.
Probably some increased slug activity, but slug pellets under the Mypex are not available to birds etc. and hopefully the slugs snuff it under the Mypex too, so the birds don't eat their carcasses
I treat the grass on my paths, between raised beds, with selective weedkiller. I use a basic 2,4-D weedkiller, which doesn't have any persistent chemicals in it like Clopyralid. My figuring is that if I provide some control of weeds in the surrounding grass then that is less potential seed that will spread into the beds.
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I use a rotovator with blunt blades, that generally pulls up weeds and winds them round the blades (I usually have to clear them at the end of each row), once this is done, any area not planted gets a good rotovate every week, then once the plants go in its down to hand weeding as often as possible. hand digging for me is just not an option with the time I have available and the fragility of my back - about a dozen forkfulls puts my back out for weeks. (still recovering from digging for potatoes last weekend).
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I may be getting another plot which is overgrown with thistles and meadowsweet.
Meadow sweet likes damp places - if you take the plot you may have a drainage problem. It's normal home is on the banks of rivers, streams, brooks, ditches. To cure that one you will need to dig deep and incorporate lots of humus - unless you find the source of the damp more easily.
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I may be getting another plot which is overgrown with thistles and meadowsweet.
Meadow sweet likes damp places - if you take the plot you may have a drainage problem. It's normal home is on the banks of rivers, streams, brooks, ditches. To cure that one you will need to dig deep and incorporate lots of humus - unless you find the source of the damp more easily.
Interesting, the meadowsweet is down to one end away from the path so I will check before taking it on. :)