Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Chatting => Chatting on the Plot => Topic started by: rowlandwells on October 13, 2020, 19:22
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did anyone see the panorama program on the television last night reporting on the impending deal with America to import meat
it made me sick to watch those poor animals locked up in pens to produce cheap meat the cattle had no space to move just being crammed full of food to produce cheep meat for the American market that could be in our UK supermarkets shortly same for pigs strapped up not even space to turn round talk about animal welfare they don't even know the meaning for animal welfare in America
and that's not counting the chemicals they pump into these poor animals that is banned in this country and then there's use of chemicals for the growing media that have been banned in this country for the sake of protecting the environment and wildlife
when i look outside our window and see sheep eating fresh grass in a field with plenty of space and my farmer friends having there cattle also grazing on fresh grassland and then brought into a nice warm shed with a bed of straw and plenty of space to walk around
i have to say we are a country who looks very seriously at the way we rear our animals for the food chain animal welfare playing an important part of this cycle
i just hope that we can retain our British meat producers if this meat import is aloud to happen because i will not be buying anything but British
and it will be interesting to hear what our members feel abut this subject
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British food standards are amongst the highest in the world.
I think that the uk could easily be self sufficient in meat. pork is one of the main imports but i am sure that if it were more profitable we could become sufficient in this too.
Unfortunately people are often lead by price
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I would take anything from Panorama with a big pinch of salt. They've been proven to present their political agenda as fact in the past.
US big agriculture, feed lots and mega dairies is appalling on many levels but I understand the government will insist on suppliers meeting our standards. Incidentally, have you noticed how many products contain chicken from Thailand? Not noted for meeting our standards but apparently EU approved...
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I would take anything from Panorama with a big pinch of salt. They've been proven to present their political agenda as fact in the past.
US big agriculture, feed lots and mega dairies is appalling on many levels but I understand the government will insist on suppliers meeting our standards. Incidentally, have you noticed how many products contain chicken from Thailand? Not noted for meeting our standards but apparently EU approved...
Not to mention Argentinian beef imports, worse standards than the US.
And agreed, Panaroma is the TV equivalent of clickbait these days.
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I would take anything from Panorama with a big pinch of salt. They've been proven to present their political agenda as fact in the past.
US big agriculture, feed lots and mega dairies is appalling on many levels but I understand the government will insist on suppliers meeting our standards. Incidentally, have you noticed how many products contain chicken from Thailand? Not noted for meeting our standards but apparently EU approved...
I work in a supermarket and just for idle curiosity while shopping checked all the vast array of frozen chicken items. Inc nuggets etc. None were from Britain. Most were Thailand. And Poland and even Vietnam. 😠. All recognised for their humanity towards animals. NOT.You telling me that most of our chicken reared here couldn't be used. I'm the same as a lot of ppl and only buy British. I work on the tills and even press the point home there. I feel its my duty. 😉😉
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i take your point about imported meat and other imported food products but i have to say we never buy imported meats we have several butchers shops round here that sell locally reared beef pork lamb and chickens including free range eggs
also worth a mention that we import rape seed or rape seed oil from countries the still use chemicals that where banned by the EU for environmental reasons one being it was said to decimate our bee population
as for buying veg well we try not to buy veg because like most of us gardeners we use what we grow or what's the point in having an allotments tunnels and greenhouses
i know i go on about animal welfare because i feel passionate about rearing animals in a proper environment because the have quite relatively short life before going into the food chain so why shouldn't they have a decent short life
i can always remember we used to go to Wales for our hols for many years and stop on a traditionally Welsh farm mainly all stock and the farmer was very passionate about looking after his animals come day or night
so will I continue to buy British produced food the answer is definitely yes :D
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If meat and poultry produced in this country is clearly marked as such by the producers, and a check is kept that there is no cheating, then surely if we don't want the other stuff, then we won't buy it. If we don't buy it there's no call for anyone to import it. I am aware though that for some people the choice will always have to be based on cost, but once again this will be up to the individual to decide. Personally I don't eat meat or poultry, but if someone chooses an inhumanely produced product rather than become vegetarian because they like to eat meat, then who am I to say this is wrong.
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We eat very little meat or poultry but what we do eat comes from butcher who buys locsl. We don't eat ready meals so that's another thing I don't have to worry about.
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Thing is, food is too cheap. I know people won't find that a reasonable comment but the truth is that our food is a lot cheaper now (in comparison to incomes) than it has ever been. If we buy a chicken, nothing is wasted because that was how we were taught. But when it's dirt cheap there's no incentive to make the most of it.
I really hope that we will use leaving the EU to actually improve our standards with imported food rather than go down the price is all that matters route. Not all US produced food is the same - they have a thriving small farm sector. But selling quality is always a lot harder than price.
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America owns a very large chicken processing plant as well as sausage factory. They are buying their way in.
I use the butchers as well as british free range in the supermarkets.
Food standards could be better here, but people do like cheap meat and eggs.
EU pork is indoors and cramped space.
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i think I've said my peace on this topic and i tend to agree what John is saying that does makes sense to me
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Cheap food has its place, but I agree that if that is the only deciding factor, you do often go down the line of processed foods with ingredients from who knows where.
Breaded chicken products are nearly always from overseas, but they are a bit of a con. Lots of coating, so of course they look cheaper than fresh chicken, but you are mostly eating flavoured bread. Sausages often have quite a shockingly low percentage of actual meat.
If you can or want to cook from scratch, your options open up and it doesn’t have to be expensive. I am not vegetarian, but we often have veggie meals or ones where the meat is a only a small part of the meal. I would rather do that and spend more when we do have meat, than eat it every day.
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I saw the programme and was a bit shocked. We don't eat much meat here, I prefer fish anyway. Paul likes his meat so we always have it on a Sunday, but the rest of the week is split between two fish, two veggie days and then the odd day, like today, is using up leftovers. The 'odd' day is whatever we fancy or can find in the freezer.
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One of the problems of farming is that the economics are unrelated to the environment. Our cheap food today is subsidised by our children who will pay for the destruction we impose on the planet.
However - the BBC program presented a biased viewpoint that implied UK farming was on a level with US feedlot systems.
From the NFU Online (https://www.nfuonline.com/news/media-centre/press-releases/nfu-complaint-to-bbc-on-impartiality-breach-upheld/)
Ofcom ruled that viewers only received ‘a partial analysis of the impact of livestock farming on the global environment and biodiversity, based almost exclusively on intensive farming methods’ and that ‘the relative environmental impact of non-intensive systems of livestock farming was an important consideration for viewers when assessing the environmental impact of meat production globally, and when considering what the invitation to reduce or eliminate meat consumption might mean in the UK context.’
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First, I will say that I've had a polite warning from moderators about a thread I started that wound up verging into political issues, and a post from me that weighed in on those issues as expressed by others. This thread IMO includes some posts that verge into anti-USA bias and also against other nations. I'm asking only that rules be applied fairly.
I will weigh in on what I know of US poultry production (in a former job, I worked on environmentally-sound waste management for such companies, among other work). All poultry produced or sold in the USA MUST be hormone-free, by US law, and must bear markings on the packaging indicating it is hormone-free, no exceptions. Including antibiotics in US poultry feed used to be common, but many producers realized consumers don't want the antibiotics, and have eliminated them from poultry production (to be honest, not all producers have made this change). I don't know what other specific chemicals might be a concern(?). To meet customer demands, US growers have adapted to produce what customers want, if UK buyers have certain requirements, the producers will adapt.
I have seen lurid footage in anti-meat production films, and have also been on such feedlots for poultry, pork, and beef production. There are bad actors in all industries, so take those films with a big grain of salt. The feedlots are not ideal, but are not as bad as the films. There is also a lot of grass-fed beef production in the USA, if UK consumers want that, convince the UK markets to buy those products, rather than corn-fed beef, fattened on feedlots.
I eat US poultry, not US beef or pork, due to health reasons. When my wife buys beef for herself and our sons, she buys free-range grass-fed beef. We have substantially reduced our overall meat consumption, because eating less meat is better for the environment.
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The programme broadcast by the BBC did verge into bias in my view, but I think warnings were pretty promptly posted to warn about their agenda these days and to take what they say in some programmes with a big pinch of salt.
I don’t think people are anti-American, but there is a lot of strong feeling over the standards of treatment given to farm animals. I wouldn’t buy feedlot meat from the USA, but then I won’t buy some UK produced products - probably ones you would not touch either if they were imported into America. It is the same with products from anywhere. Saying you don’t agree with the methods of some meat production from a country is not the same as saying you don’t like that country or have some bias towards it.
I think we can both agree that we would rather eat less meat and know it was raised in a system we feel comfortable with, whichever side of the pond we are sitting on :)
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I think chlorine washed chicken is something that the UK doesn’t want imported as this may allow poorer hygiene procedures in the production chain than we have here.
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I think chlorine washed chicken is something that the UK doesn’t want imported as this may allow poorer hygiene procedures in the production chain than we have here.
On the other hand, I've heard it said that the US system is actually safer for poultry. The problem is extracting real information from political agendas of protectionism and anti-Brexit. Chlorine washed is such an emotive term - OMG they use a chemical!
I think we should look for a consensus of scientific opinion on food safety measures.
There is a strong argument to be made for protectionism with our farming though. I'll save you from a 2,000 word starting at the corn laws and ending up via two world wars at a butter mountain sitting in a wine lake!
First, I will say that I've had a polite warning from moderators about a thread I started that wound up verging into political issues, and a post from me that weighed in on those issues as expressed by others. This thread IMO includes some posts that verge into anti-USA bias and also against other nations. I'm asking only that rules be applied fairly.
I think you're right that we were on the edge of anti-USA bias but I do feel we've kept the thread to the heart of the matter, food production systems. The USA's sheer size enables and encourages methods that sacrifice ecology for economic benefit.
On the plus side, some of the best pioneers of regenerative and sustainable agriculture are based in the USA.
I have seen lurid footage in anti-meat production films, and have also been on such feedlots for poultry, pork, and beef production. There are bad actors in all industries, so take those films with a big grain of salt. The feedlots are not ideal, but are not as bad as the films. There is also a lot of grass-fed beef production in the USA, if UK consumers want that, convince the UK markets to buy those products, rather than corn-fed beef, fattened on feedlots.
I think we know consumers vote with their wallet - never mind the quality, it's cheap. I go back to saying food in the UK (and most of the west) is too cheap. That's not an easy sell for the politicians...
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I agree John, especially that modern farming is ruining the soil for future generations. It won't be appreciated but we have to regenerate our soil, and not just rely on continually adding more and more artificial fertilisers.
Perhaps we should make English Pastoral by James Rebanks compulsory reading - because it explains what has happened over the last few generations on his own farm. We can't just go back to the 'rural ideal' but we can help the soil and wildlife recover.
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Chlorine washed is such an emotive term - OMG they use a chemical!
I’m not sure that is a problem. All of the pre-packed salads we but in the supermarkets are chlorine washed. All of out tapwater is chlorinated. And we immerse ourselves in swimming pools full of it.
Our meat, if produced hygienicly, does not need to be chlorine washed.
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I’m not sure that is a problem. All of the pre-packed salads we but in the supermarkets are chlorine washed. All of out tapwater is chlorinated. And we immerse ourselves in swimming pools full of it.
Our meat, if produced hygienicly, does not need to be chlorine washed.
Unfortunately that's not the case. Some 75% of chicken sold is contaminated with Campylobacter according to this report
https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/news/90509/campylobacter-levels-in-british-chicken-the-results-are-in/
which is why the NHS says you shouldn't wash chicken at home prior to cooking
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/never-wash-raw-chicken/
Perhaps we would do well to chlorine wash our chickens here! :)
Not the most cheery thing to read, sorry!
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I still believe if you handle and cook your chicken properly, there is not a problem.
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I think we know consumers vote with their wallet - never mind the quality, it's cheap. I go back to saying food in the UK (and most of the west) is too cheap. That's not an easy sell for the politicians...
Yes, many people look at the purchase price first, it is the same with clothes, the methods of production are out of sight out of mind, so who cares if other people and animals suffer in the process? It should be added that some people, even in the wealthy UK, live in poverty so they have to look for the cheapest because it is all they can afford, so we should try and avoid lecturing and judging from the position of a privilige of wealth.
It highlights one of the major flaws of the capitalist system, that of externalised costs. Cheap food and goods are cheap because someone else remotely is indirectly subsidising it, maybe through poor or non-existant working regulations, degradation of quality of life, or environmental destruction. The result is that people get punished in the wallet for making ethical or sustainable choices. Until externalised costs are internalilsed or the majority who can afford it add sustainability and ecology to their moral compass, nothing will change.
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I think my point is that the USA approaches food safety / hygiene from a different direction to the EU & UK. It's possible some of their approaches are actually better than our current methods.
Years ago (I think Queen Victoria was on the throne) I worked in a supermarket on the deli. One of the jobs was wiping the green off a side of bacon with a dilute bleach solution prior to boning and slicing. Possibly not best practice nowadays but we didn't kill any customers. Well, not many :D
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It highlights one of the major flaws of the capitalist system, that of externalised costs. Cheap food and goods are cheap because someone else remotely is indirectly subsidising it, maybe through poor or non-existant working regulations, degradation of quality of life, or environmental destruction. The result is that people get punished in the wallet for making ethical or sustainable choices. Until externalised costs are internalilsed or the majority who can afford it add sustainability and ecology to their moral compass, nothing will change.
I agree mainly with what you say. I've felt for some time that our economics are out of line with environmental costs and values. Quite how to put it in balance is another question, can some genius come up with the answer, please?
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The Panorama programme raised a number of points of concern to any UK consumer considering buying US meat: the use of unnatural food fed to fatten up beef cattle, of restraints preventing movement of pigs and the use of antibiotics to an extent greater than allowed by the EU.
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i couldn't agree more with what your saying Chris spot on :)
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The Panorama programme raised a number of points of concern to any UK consumer considering buying US meat: the use of unnatural food fed to fatten up beef cattle,
Easy problem to solve. Market (consumer) preferences can dictate how beef consumed in the UK is raised (including fed) before it reaches the butcher. I won't pretend to know what feeds are allowed in the UK. I assume grass-fed beef is considered OK? Grass-fed is produced in the USA. Insist on that, and producers will comply, regardless of country of origin. Personally I don't eat beef/veal, lamb, pork, or any mammal meat (for medical reasons), but my family does, they always go for grass fed beef, and other red meat sparingly.
of restraints preventing movement of pigs
In my environmental consulting days I sometimes worked on farms, including farms that produced pigs for slaughter. Pigs were in pens, but had room to move, never restrained. There are bad actors in every field, is the footage from the worst farms?
the use of antibiotics to an extent greater than allowed by the EU
Again, easily dealt with by the UK indicating to producers in any country what will and won't be allowed in the UK market. Most likely verifiable with testing, though I'm no expert. Consumer demands can dictate other additional quality requirements.
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There are plenty of pigs in pens over here as well Subversive_plot. A lot of our pork and bacon also comes from countries that allow sows to be kept in smaller pens and for longer than we allow in the UK.
The programme did report some potential points of concern to UK consumers, but failed to show the broader picture of how that squared up to animal welfare standards from other nations we happily buy from. I don’t know if they went looking for trouble and picked the worse case scenarios, but their record for balanced reporting is not great.
You are spot on about consumer choice though. If you care, you can make your choice not to buy, or buy less, if you can’t afford a lot of meat produced at a standard you are comfortable with.
If all you want is the cheapest option and there are a lot of people who can afford to not make that choice, but don’t care, then you will buy meat from America or anywhere else for that matter.
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I'm afraid there's a lot wrong with our systems in the UK and we should look to cleaning our own house before pointing fingers. You can have wholesome, ethically and environmentally sustainable food or cheap food. You pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.
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That’s very true.Although I think our animal welfare is so much different to many of those abroad but I know that the ‘free range’ eggs I buy from the supermarket are anything but in reality. I know a farmer who supplies them. He’s got 60000 layers in a chicken house. If he keeps the door open at one end, they are free to range. In reality not many venture out as they are too frightened to, as they aren’t used to it.
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1 farmer here did not count his chickens and 1 was walking up the road :D
We are exporting beef to America.
Bird Flu has been confirmed twice in this country,2 different strains
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In an ideal world, retailers in this country can perhaps insist on high standards of production and may even be able to implement reliable checks to control whether the high standards are being met. But in a world where supermarkets buy a very cheap product like garlic from China which is easily produced in this country or in Spain, there must be an even greater temptation for supermarkets to buy the much higher cost beef from America at the very cheapest price irrespective of the standards used to produce it. How are consumers able to determine how beef from America has been produced without government-imposed classification they are extremely unlikely to implement?
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Hello I've been chatting to a guy whose just taken on a contract to supply a large conglomerate with chickens,they have to be fresh so they're packed chilled into containers shipped to Brazil processed into into various parts coated in spice mixes UK sourced then shipped back deep frozen 3 weeks later and sold as fresh coated chicken the supplier says he can have them processed in 4 hours and on the shelves the same day and the processing plant have the little red tractor badge farm assurance jezza
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In an ideal world, retailers in this country can perhaps insist on high standards of production and may even be able to implement reliable checks to control whether the high standards are being met.
Exactly correct. We agree.
But in a world where supermarkets buy a very cheap product like garlic from China which is easily produced in this country or in Spain, there must be an even greater temptation for supermarkets to buy the much higher cost beef from America at the very cheapest price irrespective of the standards used to produce it. How are consumers able to determine how beef from America has been produced without government-imposed classification they are extremely unlikely to implement?
I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Beef from America is much higher cost, so supermarkets are tempted to buy it because of it's very cheap price?
Importers in any country should be responsible for ensuring that imported products meet the standards of their country. Food produced for import-export market is usually produced by larger commodity producers, typically the producer has many satellite farms, the producing company sets standards for the feed used, cleanliness standards, etc. The producer wants very uniform quality, and can't work with farms that cannot meet production quality standards (if quality is excellent at 99% of farms but terrible at 1%, the 1% will drag down the price of the 99%). Any kind of meat production has very narrow profit margins, this dictates strict quality control by the producing company.
The importer, as the customer, has a lot to say about the standards followed and quality of the product. They can dictate that government-imposed production standards are met so that classification standards are attained, verified by inspections.
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Part of the problem here is that despite the UK government saying over and over they will not allow imports from the USA or anywhere else that fall outside of our standards some people in the media keep stating they will.
One of the unexpected consequences of government involvement in food standards is the imposition of rules that make little sense. But I'm getting perilously near to being political and we stick to dinner party rules here - no politics, religion or sex. :)
If nothing else, I think we've all had enough politics to last a while recently!
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I’ve got my eye on you, John :nowink:
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Somewhat related from an animal welfare standpoint: I just saw that The Netherlands is culling all farm-raised mink due to coronavirus risks, unless I misunderstood the story. I do feel sorry for these intelligent animals living out their lives in tiny cages. I thought that the fur industry was mostly a thing of the past.
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Fur farming has been illegal in Britain since 2000 and it is illegal to trade any fur animal here too. It’s illegal in many EU countries but it will take a long time to stop the practice in some other countries if ever.
All mink is being kulled in Denmark, so that’s probably the end of the fur industry there.
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I agree John to much politics makes me a dull boy we just need to suck it and see what happens across the big apple
that's a bit of good news Aunty I won't need to order the wife a fur coat now :D
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I just watched an interesting video on YouTube about egg standards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo3PDWeHb58). The US & EU standards are opposite. Our eggs are illegal there and vice versa. Both make sense. Funny old world.