Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Chatting => Chatting on the Plot => Topic started by: Lardman on February 19, 2019, 19:06
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I've had the LGO report today.
The nub of the issue is that I have seen no evidence to support the claim that what happened
caused your mother injustice.
I am very angry - no - I am furious.
Tonight I will be spending my time practising my best Anglo Saxon whilst I decide on what to do next.
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What are your options for taking up the services of the learned friends?
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For what it is worth, I think you have every right to be furious.
If they can't see how Mother Lard was caused injustice, can they not see how you were by default? One of the prime duties of any ombudsman is to make good the mistakes, so you end up back where you would have been, if they hadn't happened. ML didn't get the visits and time she was supposed to get from her carers, but are they saying that because you saw the problems and organised extra care, it was OK? You have solid monetary amounts you can show as evidence that it wasn't.
It hardly seems fair that you should be penalised for stepping in when there was clearly a need to.
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Still furious this morning....
ML didn't get the visits and time she was supposed to get from her carers, but are they saying that because you saw the problems and organised extra care, it was OK?
Worse - the report states is that she DID get the care she required and therefore there was no wrong doing. I have absolutely no clue what the council have given to the LGO that would make the investigating officer think a 4 minute care call was sufficient time.
I can only think of 2 possible reasons :
The council have lied about the call times to the LGO (I'd already provided the correct data on a spreadsheet) .
The LGO is covering for the council just as the council covered for the care company.
I sent the officer an email last night with more information in and I'll follow it up today with a call, but I'm getting the distinct impression they see no wrong-doing because they don't want to. If this is the case then no amount of reasoned argument or evidence will make any difference and I'm flogging a dead horse.
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I'm only guessing, but is it linked to their definition of injustice? You have to prove you were put in a worse position, so if useless care company say all ML needed or wanted was a 4 minute care call on such and such a day, you have to prove this had a concrete effect on her for the ombudsman to rule in your favour. Their role is pretty narrow in that respect.
That's why I wondered if you would have a case as you were forced to compensate for their lack of care to your financial detriment. Perhaps a consultation with a solicitor in this area might be an idea, just so you can have a full picture of the options.
The council should have dealt with the complaints about the standard of care provided and I'd agree it looks like a major case of bottom covering there. The LGO may just be bound by the ties of their own mandate. That doesn't mean legal action against the council isn't out of the question, but you need to know if it is going to be worthwhile before committing to that.
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I'm trying to think of something to say that isn't going to be deleted by the mods but am failing in that respect! All I can say is that I'm glad you can come on here and talk about it.
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Oh Lards, I feel your pain I really do. I suppose it depends how much fight you’ve got left in you to be honest. When my mum died we had cause to complain to PALS at the hospital,not about her treatment as that was excellent but about what happened afterwards at the bereavement office. My sister & I drafted a letter & weeks later had a reply, stating they were sorry that they hadn’t replied in the time frame but would investigate our complaints. Some 6 months later we were told that nothing had been done that shouldn’t have been. By this time we had been having a really tough time with other family members & I’m afraid we just gave up, it went against the grain but we could see it was just going to cause us more pain & suffering . Our initial concern was that it didn’t happen to anyone else, but over 6 months later we were so battered & bruised from the ramifications of that office (that in fairness they weren’t to know of) that we just had to go quietly & luck our wounds. I do wish we’d had it in us to put up more of a fight. I sincerely wish you well but I cannot see how you are going to get them to admit either wrong doing or responsibility.
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Oh Lards, I am just lost for words as to what to say. I have been through similar probs with this type of thing and 'other difficult family members'. Just don't make yourself ill over it, that won't help. Best wishes, Mrs Bouquet
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I post for entirely selfish reasons ::) it's helpful for me to vent but also to get perspective. I know that just because I think something is as clear as day and night, that doesn't mean it is or someone else sees it as so.
I'm only guessing, but is it linked to their definition of injustice? You have to prove you were put in a worse position, so if useless care company say all ML needed or wanted was a 4 minute care call on such and such a day, you have to prove this had a concrete effect on her for the ombudsman to rule in your favour.
You may be right on that Shoots, and it's something I didn't consider. I would have expected the investigating officer to have investigated the lack of service associated with the short calls rather than me having to state exactly what they failed to do. Yesterday I asked the LGO to clarify why there is no evidence and what they would consider evidence, which feels like a reasonable thing for me to ask them.
Worryingly and perhaps why I'm tending toward bottom covering, was the LGO's lack of concern that complaints procedures weren't followed and that even though I'd provided written evidence of the social workers lying to me (and I don't use that word lightly) it wasn't wrong as they apologised for it when they were caught.
It's very difficult to prove any financial loss on my behalf as I'm self employed and my income is variable anyway, so that's a bit of a none starter.
I'll keep at it but every time I do they retaliate and it impacts ML, I'm under safeguarding investigation again now as it is.
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When they made that 4 minute call to ML, what exactly was the time allowed on the care-plan and what should they have done in the allocated time. The reason I ask is because, sometimes Mum's carers would arrive and only be there a very short while, having failed to do anything other than perhaps make her a cuppa. I subsequently would find out, that although she said they hadn't done anything, it was because she said she "didn't want them to do anything", because she was too tired, too poorly, too grumpy, etc :nowink:. So I was just wondering. Mrs Bouquet
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I had a very similar situation last year Mrs B, when my mother had carers for a few weeks. She would moan and whine to me, but it turned out she was playing us off against each other. I'm not suggesting for a second that ML has done the same Lardman, but it is something all the professionals in the field will have seen many times. It would wash as a reason given for short calls and why you have a different version of events to them.
Re, the ombudsman, I'm remembering stuff from the financial services ombudsman from a previous life doing an office job, but in general they don't tend to comment on the way things were done, just focus on the outcome and what they define as injustice. The have powers to do stuff, but their remit is far narrower than you would assume it was. Asking them for clarification should hopefully help. What about the CAB or are there carers charities/social media groups you could tap for info?
As for posting/venting/just letting that exasperation have an outlet, well that is what the forum does. We may only be virtual friends, but sometimes that makes it easier to just get it out of your system and you can get a mix of views back, some empathy and feel you are not so alone with your rock to push up a hill. It has helped me a number of times :)
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I post for entirely selfish reasons ::) it's helpful for me to vent but also to get perspective. I know that just because I think something is as clear as day and night, that doesn't mean it is or someone else sees it as so.
And please continue to do so, I think we all see this forum as a means to the above
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I post for entirely selfish reasons ::) it's helpful for me to vent but also to get perspective. I know that just because I think something is as clear as day and night, that doesn't mean it is or someone else sees it as so.
And please continue to do so, I think we all see this forum as a means to do just the same & in the situation you find yourself in I’m sure you need another or 3 viewpoints. As for being under investigation re safeguarding I find that totally preposterous but having worked with vulnerable families for many years I just feel sorry you’ve got tangled up in a system that works in a very misguided way sometimes, knowing the difficulties we had to get children away from families that were damaging them in more ways than one. Our social care team once (not the only time I’m sure) wrote to a family to ask if they were as had been reported keeping their child locked in a cupboard 🤬 even more ironical they were illiterate, crazy.
I wish you the very best & the strength to keep on.
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Only seen bits and pieces but bear with me.
Call if on the landline or mobile phone, install a recording device, inform the care company you are doing so.
Install recordable cctv in your mums rooms, company does not need to know this
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Install recordable cctv in your mums rooms, company does not need to know this
Funny you should say that, having done this already, yesterdays safegaurding investigation was about it and the usual control and coercion manure they use to remove me from the interview. At least this time they didn't try and tell her they were illegal, ML gave the officers short shrift but we had the usual, we have the legal right to do this, we need to interview you alone etc etc etc. very upsetting for her.
After every complaint I have raised about [useless company] there has been a safegaurding investigation into me, the council refuse to release information about the investigations even under article 15 claiming the "serious harm" exception, this prevents me taking action to stop it.
I would have a little more sympathy if a child was involved, but ML is an adult with full capacity in her own home. I know the response they'd get if they told me they were coming to interview me in my house. :mad:
I had a very similar situation last year Mrs B, when my mother had carers for a few weeks. She would moan and whine to me, but it turned out she was playing us off against each other. ..... It would wash as a reason given for short calls and why you have a different version of events to them.
It's all on CCTV, there's a written agreed plan for each call ;) Plan and Camera don't match and not just with ML related tasks.
Yesterdays response from the LGO.
The issue for me, now that you have clarified matters, is that the injustice your are claiming in relation to the complaint I have investigated ([Useless Company] carers not staying for the required time and not meeting your mother's care needs), is the same as the allegation raised under [complaint number] which is subject to a safeguarding investigation
[complaint number] is NOT the complaint I referred to the LGO, it is from 2 months before, so can not cover the same issues - although similar. It is still open at the council after 7 months as such the LGO won't get involved so I haven't referred it to them. The complaint I did refer to them wasn't open and hadn't been anywhere near safeguarding.
Head burying or bottom covering? I know which I think.
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Lardman, don't you ever say you're being selfish for posting this on the forum or I'll give your bum a very severe nip with my serrated beak! :ohmy: You can't possibly keep all this inside or just have a couple of people to talk to. It's not only about just sharing it with us, it's also a means whereby occasionally someone may come up with something that you haven't thought about and that's what we're all here for.
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I would class her as a vulnerable person and therefore should have someone present at all times. You ML can ask for a transcript of what was said at the meeting as it involves her.
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I would class her as a vulnerable person and therefore should have someone present at all times.
Argued till I was blue in the face, they just trot out the same old tune "control and coercion"
You ML can ask for a transcript of what was said at the meeting as it involves her.
Previously refused.
As was my request under GDPR Article 15, and her request under GDPR Article 15. I have in writing from the councils information governance department whatever action she takes they will not provide it. It's all be passed to the ICO.
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Next time she has a ‘meeting’ with them can you not set up a hidden mike & camera on her or in the house?
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Install recordable cctv in your mums rooms, company does not need to know this
Funny you should say that, having done this already, yesterdays safegaurding investigation was about it and the usual control and coercion manure they use to remove me from the interview. At least this time they didn't try and tell her they were illegal, ML gave the officers short shrift but we had the usual, we have the legal right to do this, we need to interview you alone etc etc etc. very upsetting for her.
I understand the issues around this, but that really does seem crazy. You put the cameras there to make sure useless care company were doing their job, so you were safeguarding your mum. They think that your concern is control and coercion - pfffft. The cynic in me sees how this could be a great way to divert attention away from their uselessness.
ML has a say in all this and whether she thinks the cameras are OK or not. This is a long document, but is written very well. I know she is a feisty lady who can hold her own. This might be good reading for her though, just to clarify to her that her voice does mean something in all this upsetting officialdom.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs78_safeguarding_older_people_from_abuse_fcs.pdf
At the end of the day, it is up to you and ML to decide when the whole thing is impacting too much on her to be worth fighting for. I'm sure you will have support and sympathy on here, whatever you decide.
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I understand the issues around this, but that really does seem crazy. You put the cameras there to make sure useless care company were doing their job, so you were safeguarding your mum. They think that your concern is control and coercion - pfffft. The cynic in me sees how this could be a great way to divert attention away from their uselessness.
They say I am the source of the control an coercion. It's now the third time they have investigated me, same manure every time. Every time ML tells them it's manure and she didn't want to see them and she doesn't want to see them again. The council using 'safeguarding' in this way is shameful needs to be addressed.
I'm familiar with the document you've linked and also Article 8 of ECHR, which I reminded the investigators about very forcefully. Makes no difference to them though as the laws are not enforced without legal action and they are assuming ML wont take any :nowink:
I'll pursue [useless company] until proportional action is taken against them and the council for as long as ML wishes me to, knowing ML I'll not be stopping any time soon.
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Sorry I worded that badly. I meant it was ridiculous to think you were trying to control things, when all you wanted to do was make sure ML kept control over her independence and dignity. Without the cameras, where was her proof of 4 minute calls, if they were claiming otherwise.
The council using 'safeguarding' in this way is shameful
Yes it is. It is bottom covering for them and also ties bodies like the ombudsman in knots whilst it is ongoing.
If ML is up for it, you keep on. As I have said before, not everyone has someone to wade in and fight their corner. It is worrying how many must just give up and accept substandard service.
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I know how you feel, Lardy. Hospital has tried four times to discharge a relative of ours who is obviously very sick, and neither fit nor safe for discharge, and have threatened us with Social Services and the police if we don't facilitate entry into their home.
Needless to say, we aren't budging until they get the care they so obviously need. We have the advantage that the sick person is already in their care, and we are, finally, making some headway because they have had no option but to keep the patient with them.
After your long battle you must be feeling both frustrated and absolutely exhausted.
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Have you tried age uk for impartial advice?
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The final statement from the LGO investigator, having checked my interpretation of his email was correct.
It is not reflected in the final decision statement because you clarified the claim to injustice after I issued the final decision. I am not planning to reopen the investigation in order to amend the statement, as that would not alter the outcome of my investigation.
Id say that was full on bottom covering at all costs. For what good it will do I'll file a request for an official review.
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For what good it will do I'll file a request for an official review.
I'm not sure what good it will do either, but if you and ML are planning legal action, at least you can say you have tried everything via the usual channels before resorting to that.
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No surprise... :mad: :mad:
After reviewing the file and looking carefully at what you have sent, I appreciate you may be disappointed, but I support the decision to close your complaint.
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Well it certainly wasn't for lack of you trying. What is their motto - Heads you lose, Tails you lose. Mrs Bouquet
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Words fail me! Can't say anymore at this time but my very biggest and bestest hugs to you both.
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None so blind as those who will not see. It's a set back, but not the end of the matter. I can clearly show I have tried every available avenue to resolve things using the correct channels.
After a similar experience during my last run in the with council, this time I compartmentalised my complaints and all my eggs weren't in one basket. This would allow me to refer other complaints if this sort of thing happened. ;)
The council may be made from teflon but sooner or later I will get something to stick.