[Kazoo]

Hi There
A couple of weeks ago one of my black rocks started laying soft eggs, I followed Aunt Sallys advice and bought some limestone which I have been mixing into their layers.  Since then she has been laying without a shell and now not at all.  She doesn't seem to be eating much now and goes and sits in her nest box about 9pm and stays there till morning.  Apart from that she has a bright red comb, I have checked for mites etc and she feels nice and heavy so she must be eating.  She just seems a bit 'off' during the afternoons and stands staring into space.  She hasn't laid now for a week.  I notice today that the garden is covered in black feathers and have checked both of the black hens and can't see which one is losing them - this is the wrong time of year for a  moult isn't it?  Any thoughts, she is 18 months old.

[mdueal]

Hmm - not sure!
Hens will drop feathers if going broody but you havent mentioned any other 'symtoms' of that. A couple of our hens have also been taking a break from laying with no apparent illness/broodyness.
Have you felt her belly to see if she is egg bound? Someone who has experience of that will be able to tell you more (thankfully I've never had to deal with it)
Also egg peritonitis may be a cause - check temperature by comparing temp under wings by hand to another well bird. Raised temp would indicate infection - trip to the vets??
I do remember someone saying on here that is is possible to get a 'duff' hen that lacks ability to lay normal eggs and is prone to above problems - hopefully this is not the case with yours.
Sorry I can't be more help.

[muntjac]

depends on what you bought ...:oops: Limestone is largely composed of calcium carbonate, also known as CaCO3.

This can become quicklime (Calcium Hydroxide) and carbon dioxide from high levels of heat. This can be shown as:


Calcium Carbonate = Calcium Oxide + Carbon Dioxide.

CaCO3 = CaO + CO2




Quicklime can become slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) from adding water. This produces heat in an exothermic reaction.

Calcium hydroxide = Calcium Oxide + Water

CaOH2 = CaO + H2O
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

oyster shell are used to extract calsium which is used in medicine and health suppliments etc. also shell powder is used in making cement

 you may have inadvertantly overdosed here stop it now and hopefully she will improve .

[Aunt Sally]

Limestone flour is a good source of calcium for laying hens.

A huge amount of heat (1000°C) is required to make quicklime from limestone !    

Limestone flour is greatly used in countries where oyster shell would be too expensive to import and lime stone is a cheap local alternative.

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/U9550T/u9550T0v.htm

[Kazoo]

Thanks everyone

Don't think I have overdone the limestone flour as I didn't know how much to give so just put a very small amount in their mash.
I have checked Lola over and she seems fine in every other respect other than not laying.  She has gone off to the nesting box early again tonight and is fast asleep now with the others.  Just need to keep an eye on her and if no improvement will have to drag her to the vet (its a long drive so not too keen I don't want to stress her if not necessary).  She seemed ok today, spent most of the day in the rain or snoozing in the greenhouse.

[muntjac]

i know that limestone is used elewhere anty   but if the chuck is getting both that and oestra then overdose is definatly on the cards a chuck controls its oestra intake but if extra calcium is in the feed then it wont be able to digest it normally and it will go straight into the chuck. opposite of rickets when kids didnt have enough calcium . i put down 1lb of oestra in a feeder and this last 3 months for 15 birds  for a quauntity of limestone flour as an addition i wouldnt add more than 1/2 table spoon in a months feed for them ,   1/2 teaspoon a week   coastal communities in the pacific collect and crush sea shells for thier birds and also use any coral thats washed up free range birds as most are actually eat the sand of the beach in the coral isles no oestra needed there  

[too many girls]

so, how much limestone is it advisable to feed 30 chooks say, weekly? as i'm really confused now, my birds don't get oyster shell, only layers pellets and a small amount (handfull) of oats, corn, wheat, barley, poultry spice, (3 teaspoons) garlic supplement, cod liver oil and limestone made into a mash, poultry grit is available if they want it, also how much cod liver oil should they get and how often? sorry for all the questions but i'm worried that in my quest to do the right thing i may be doing wrong.

[muntjac]

first knock the cod liver oil on the head..try a little white fishif you want i have seen pheasants eat it and also fed fish remans ,minus the bones to mine , buy oestra instead of limestone flour if ur able . feed them the layers as normal with grit and oyster shell .as fer feeding limestone id look at a teaspoon to maybe a teaspoon and a half over the week .why may i ask are you feeding limestone flour .we live in a place where we can get oestra for £7 a bag approx this will last your birds well over a year , you can order it at your local pet store   as for spice i just dont use it .its IN MY OPINION just another product sold to unknowing folks i sit and imagine a pheasant going up to the shop and asking for a spice burger and hold the maize please,,,,if they where meant to have it why are most places with hundreds of birds not using it but feeding naturally , this isnt aimed at anyone specifically but again .chickens are birds that have evolved from wild pheasants etc .feed them what they should have naturally and i will tell you they will be fine .all i fed my original 180 birds was what came from the fields and they where all fine layed eggs profusly and tasted great , walk into any pet store today and see the dodo that these shops sell ,,, tropical fruit treats for rats ??//// a bit of raw meat will be better for them. dog food with carrots peas and ohhhhh roasted beef in it and ADDED minerals and vitamins ,,,,, because they roasted the blooming meat and destroyed all the good stuf in it . feed your cat our tasty sword fish with added vitamins and seasonal veggies ,, try sword fish for yourself .its full of vits and oils that are good for you ,as a human, they cook it in tins and then add MORE  blooming minerals and vits to it  :roll:  ,,,,as for the seed stuff you feed . try feeding them a milk carton scoop .. ( cut the bottom off to make it ) daily and cut out all the rest of the non natural stuff/ leave the layers as they are just processed corns and the garlic powder if you want but i havent seen any italian chucks saying they want garlic on thier menu .( yeh i know its good for them APPARANTLY ) but who started this rumour anyways ,has anyone seen them eat raw commercial garlic?we give ours a few wild garlic leaves as we have tons of it and comfrey AS ITS GREENS .tasty that as well apparantly when diped in an elderflower tempura batter and deep fried .. the proper simple diet for chucks is layers greens and seed.......if its a little off colour use dandelion leaves to give it a boost and clear its gut .and if you want to vet it then do so .. and yes dont over feed the dandelion iether ,, dont give the roots as they contain caffiene   and if you want to feed them rice feed it dry as the chinese and other folks do .... its a seed   hope she gets better soon  

[Aunt Sally]

If you're birds are healthy and laying good strong shelled eggs then there is very little need for feed supplements at all.

Layers pellets, oystershell and grit, greens (including grass) and fresh water is all that is needed.

At times of stress a few things can help.  When they moult some extra protein helps them to replace their feathers, I use white fish tinned tuna in spring water (no added salt or oil) and a little cat food.  In the winter when there is not much sunlight to produce natural Vitamin D for calcium absorption a few drops of cod liver oil once a week in their feed can be helpful.  If hens are running low on calcium and are having problems with soft or weak shells then some limestone flour at about 1-2 teaspoon fulls to a kilo of feed will give them a very quick calcium boost.

Garlic is good for all chooks digestion as is unrefined Apple Cider Vinegar !

Free range hens should be offered oyster at all times, treats should only be given late afternoons.  I think it's a good idea to keep freerange hens in their run for a couple of hours in the morning too - it makes them eat pellets.  :puker:

Chooks are much like children - they'll both eat junk food all day if they can get away with it  

[too many girls]

ok, a lot of supplement's i already had before i got my hens, garlic, keeps the flies away from horses, cod liver oil i give my 40 year old pony (she's very fit and active and can keep up with others when she wants to, got no front teeth tho, they've worn away completely) limestone flour for the foals (small amount as too much can cause growth platelets) the only supplement i've actually bought for them is poultry spice, you refer to pheasants and chickens in their natural state, (i've never seen a pheasant in a battery cage, and i've never seen a wild hen) i'm afraid my hens were not kept in a natural enviroment, what ex batts are? i've picked up info from here and seeing i already had the suff thought why not, not including the hens got by the fox, they seem to be doing pretty well, if lacking somewhat in the feather stakes. we can all spend a fortune on Red mite powder and poultry shield when they've got no red mites or verm x and flubenvet when they've got no worms, before i found this forum i had no idea half of the things that can go wrong and had never heard of most of the diseases, i've kept hens before but they were regular brown ones i got from a breeder at pol, i only ever fed them layers pellets and they lived for about 5 to 6 years, these hens however came to me in what i believed was poor condition, i was only trying to do what was best for them.

[Kazoo]

up-date on poorly blackrock - Lola

Today Lola has started acting very strangely, I've been working from home today so have spent most of the time with the girls watching (I am self employed so not skiving really).  Lola has started walking sideways stretching her neck out, kits as if she can see something that I cant and is side stepping it.  Shes been doing it all through the day intermittantly.  Do you think she has a neurological problem??

[Aunt Sally]

If she seems to be developing a pralysis I still think she may have a calcium deficiency.

[too many girls]

back too the limestone flour again?

[Aunt Sally]

Make sure flaked oyster shell is available to all your hens for them to take as they require it.

Give some limestone flour just to the wobbly girl until you see an improvement.  Some yoghurt may help too as it will provide some extra phosphorous which is also needed for shells and good muscle control.

[Kazoo]

Thanks Aunt Sally, I'll start the yoghurt today.  She has the same diet as the others do you think she is having a problem absorbing calcium?  They always have crushed oyster shell available plus I scatter it round the garden weekly and Lola always scoffs loads of mash in the morning so I believe she is eating enough (more than the other 2 anyway)