Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Chatting => Equipment Shed => Topic started by: Praxxus on December 28, 2009, 22:02
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Templar Tiller Professional 500 with a B&S 5 hp engine with details of -
Model : 130202 - Type : 0576 01 - Code : 78021307 (or possibly 78021301)
Bought it and got it home 4 weeks ago, it ran ok. Took the throttle cable off the handles to hang it up to oil it because it was stiff. I must have dislodged the single wire that attaches to the back of the linkages as when it was back together it wouldnt start. I thought I put it back together correctly, obviously I didnt ! Put a new plug in (gapped to .030 ") still no joy. Stripped the flywheel off to get to the ponts-breaker (the key was split in 2 but still functioning) they were clean and operational. Put it back together. Got it to fire once but would not run. Squirted some switch cleaner into the carb. It backfired once but would not run.
Any ideas please ?
T A J
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It does sound like the cut out wire is shorting the circuit. Have you tried removing the plug, and laying it on the top of the engine just to see if you are getting a spark?
The little flexible tang of the switch should not be touching anything when the engine runs. You could try removing the wire from the switch and then checking for a spark.
How about the throttle cable? is it back in the right way? I have put them on back to front in the past, so that when on "Start", they are actually on "stop"! an easy, embarrassing mistake to make if a little while has passed from taking the cable off, and then refitting it :blush:
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Hi Gwiz !
1) Tried spark plug on top of engine = good spark (blue/white) & got a shock aswell.
2) Disconnected single black wire from engine block mount and from throttle linkages = no difference.
3) Throttle cable attatched correctly top and bottom.
4) Reconnected single black wire to engine block mount (1 contact) = no change
5) Reconnected single black wire to linkage (2 contacts) = no change
I was doing all this on my own - so may have done the wrong things ?
What would a 'flexible tang' be ?
What does the lever at bottom left (when viewed from behind) of the engine do as its connected to the 'stop' mechanism ?
How easy is it to upload photos ?
I could do that later - I'm not in a real rush, as the plot is soggy at the moment.
Prax
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It may take a while to take & upload photos as it is peeing down at the moment !
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I'll wait for the photos, it's always easier with them! :)
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Still raining !
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I have just seen some thing in your op that may hold the clue to your problem.
you say the key was split in two,well on briggs engines a damaged shaft key can upset the timing and they won't start.It is a safety feature to stop the engine if the blades hit an big object .I know your problem did not start after such an event but Its well worth replacing so you can eliminate it.
BTW, you could still get a spark but at the wrong time.
dave
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Cheers Dave - Well spotted !
The key is split on the diagonal length ways and wasn't sure if that was normal.
I've worked on motorcycle engines(singles & twins) from 1984 to 1992 doing the usual - plugs,points,timing,rings,valve springs,gaskets etc.
I am uploading photos later of the areas I've been investigating, including the key, etc.
I have searched the site for B&S 5hp problems - found quite a few posts (Gwiz & Muntjac seem to be 2 of the resident experts), but nobody seems to include diagrams/photos or accurate descriptions of the solution!
Tim
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I think it is much easier for some who fix things to "fix" them rather than to describe how they did it..or is that just me? :)
If you have a spark,Is the plug wet after a few pulls on the starter rope? if not pour a cc of petrol down the plug and see if it fires..If not its most likely a spark problem,either a weak one or one at the wrong time.One of the best diagnostic tools in my armoury is an old "in series timiing light", the ones that were produced in the 60's and 70's and connected between the spark plug and the HT lead,they were too dim to see the timing marks on lots of cars but are exellent to see if there is a spark on small engines.Whilst it is the most commonly used method and adequate for most cases, placing the plug on the engine will tell you if its sparking in the air but not under compression where it require a much higher voltage to cross the gap.The light however,won't tell you if its sparking at the right time but on fixed timing engines like B&S,if the key is ok the timing should be.
It may be of interest to other readers,re the timing light,they can be used ,say
if an engine dies each time after a few moment running, you can connect the light and if it keeps flashing until the engine stops completely then its a fuel problem but if the light goes out before it comes to a halt then its an ignition fault.
I don't know if they can be bought new but I often see them at boot sales for a few quid or so.
This is the type but this one is a bit pricey : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Strobe-timing-light-E-G-Watson-1975-neon-tube_W0QQitemZ130355370393QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment?hash=item1e59c91999
dave
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Hi ya,
My broadband has been out for a few hours this afternoon.
I managed to get out to it between rain showers, and photo'd the areas of interest.
What I did notice was that once the bits of key were put back in the flywheel, then reassembled, it would fire once but not run again. So I took it apart and (referring to your post earlier) found that the flywheel rocks backwards but locks forward, so it fires - then the crankshaft accelerates leaving the flywheel behind losing the timing - I think !
Some new keys have been ordered so I will try them when they get here.
Photos will be in my next post.
Tim
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pic 1
Throttle at 'fast' position
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pic 2
throttle at 'stop' position
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pic 3
magneto
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pic 4
magneto/flywheel clearance
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pic 5
The most likely cause - flywheel key or keys as they are now !
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pic
condensor + breaker set - clean, moves freely etc
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pic
Stop wire - connection on block (insulated ?)
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I don't know how it ever ran if it did not suddenly stop,thats a classic flywheel key shear.They don't normally run if there is any indentation in the alloy key let alone with it in two pieces
Edit:
I would do nothing else until the key is replaced
dave
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I explained to the missus how and what the key does - she says that I let it hit the driveway when the tines where still spinning - that would explain it !
Stoopid me then - lol
Oh well, wait for the new keys to arrive.
Thanks for the time being
Tim
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Atlast !
New keys arrived today!
Put one in (had to dress it with a file first) , drifted it in the flywheel slot with a punch, reassembled it all.
Pulled the starter cord - started first time !
It ran for about 8 seconds then sluttered and died !
Took it apart again - key bent.
Put another key in - same thing happened
AAAARRRGGGHHHHH
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Ah, success.....sort of.
The only reasons, that I have come across, that these shear are; Timing out (gears in crankcase) sudden shock/ stopping on implement (tines lock up, or drive suddenly stops) or flywheel nut not done up tight enough.
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If you had to file the key and driftit in in (tut tut) there is a chance that you were tightening on the key rather than on the taper .can you confirm that it was running perfectly before you hit the driveway?
dave
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Yes it was running ok - if to my ear a tincy bit lumpy ( only dealt with 2-stroke singles )
Wife says it was running ok !
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I drove it in with a 4mm round punch and a lightweight hammer. The key was flush to the flywheel.
Tim
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I ask - how tight do they fit in the keyway ?
They have to be well tight , surely ?
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If you get OEM or good quality patern parts and the keyways in the crankshaft and flywheel are not damaged then the key should slide into the shaft and the flywheel should slide on that. The key is to line things up.its the tightening onto the taper that does most of the holding.
When you stripped it to get at the points did the flywheel come easily off the taper or did you have to break it?
Dave
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It came off easily with a tiny bit of leverage, as the key was sheared already.
The keyways are unblemished and clean.
So the key fits onto the shaft first then, ha ha.
The keys I got were genuine, apparently, but they looked and felt rough around the edges, thats why I had to dress them with a file first, because it wouldn't fit in the keyway.
I'll get some more from another source and try again.
The large cupped washer faces in like this ? flywheel] ) [locking/starter assembly.
or like this ? flywheel] ( [locking/starter assembly.
I appreciate your patience with this topic.
Tim
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How tight does the locking assembly have to be, as I do it up hand tight then a 1/4 turn with a block of wood and a hammer ( obviously the flywheel is locked off )
Cheers,
Tim
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Hi Tim, I've been reading your saga and you finally ask how tight the crank nut should be?
On a tapered shaft application, the nut should actually little more than hold the flywheel/ pulley or whatever in an already tightened position and would only reluctantly use the nut to do this. On a light application such as this I use a hollow brass drift which has internal diameter only slightly larger than crankshaft whereby you can safely tap the flywheel tight.
I suppose I'm lucky that as a retired farmer who did all his own mechanical work I've acquired most tools for most jobs and learnt the hard way by getting it wrong a few times which becomes expensive. For bigger applications I have various triangular plates, from 10mm thick, with a hole in centre with a stud tapped in towards each point of the triangle.
Flywheel/ pulley goes on shaft followed by plate then nut on shaft, the 3 studs are then gradually tightened and bingo it's not only tight but also true, plate comes off and nut goes on. I still has various rotovator/cultivators that I still use, one of which is a Merry Tiller Titan with most likely the same Stratton 5 hp. Believing it to be the same if you happen to progress to fitting a new carb kit, on reassembly the choke should be pulled out about 3/8 inch before assembly. Sorry to be longwinded, but as Geewiz said it's difficult without photos. If the taper happened to be slightly worn/ damaged on jobs involving much more torque than this, and larger, I have had 100% lasting sucess using Loctite bearing fit. Hope everything goes well, I know the feeling when you've aquired something and it goes wrong before you've used it in anger! My OH has slightly stronger views at that time and I keep my head well down!!
Regards Frank
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How tight does the locking assembly have to be, as I do it up hand tight then a 1/4 turn with a block of wood and a hammer ( obviously the flywheel is locked off )
Cheers,
Tim
55Ft/lbs
http://www.smalleng.com/briggs_specs.pdf
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Happy to see GWIZ (many apologies for wrong spelling last post and if he's as entertaining as guy in photo he'll do for me!) with the actual torque setting. In my opinion, and please accept everyone has their own methods, I still like to see a taper reasonably secure before torqueing.
Regards Frank
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Thanks for the input people.
I havent managed to get more keys yet as the local suppliers service department isnt open until Monday.
"I've been reading your saga and you finally ask how tight the crank nut should be?"
Dont take this the wrong way Frank :) but...
1) I havent got a manual.
2) The locking/starter assembly requires a special tool, which I havent got, probably cant afford, and cant make as I havent got a mig welder/appropriate tools - so I was doing it by feel/guess work.
3) Thanks Gwiz, I researched many websites thoroughly but have obviously missed that torque info.
I'll get more keys and continue with diagnostics - so key in the keyway first, then flywheel over top and pressed onto shaft, then torqued to 55flb. Lovely jubbly.
Will post back early next week.
Tim
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2) The locking/starter assembly requires a special tool, which I havent got, probably cant afford, and cant make as I havent got a mig welder/appropriate tools - so I was doing it by feel/guess work.
Howzabout this then...... :)
http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrmbs.htm
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Yes, Gwiz, read that previously, thankyou, thats where I found out about using a block of wood and tapping it off.
Still worried the cup washer is the wrong way round, well it fell off when the flywheel was removed the first time , I didnt see its orientation as it was the same colour as the flywheel and it was getting dark.
Tim
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Yes, Gwiz, read that previously, thankyou, thats where I found out about using a block of wood and tapping it off.
Still worried the cup washer is the wrong way round, well it fell off when the flywheel was removed the first time , I didnt see its orientation as it was the same colour as the flywheel and it was getting dark.
Tim
I did post quite a long reply earlier on re the washer, tools for removal, hollow drifts etc which was not posted.I contacted a mod and it looks like it was because there had been another post as I was typing and i should have pressed the post button twice after getting the warning
Anyway re the washer,the circumference touches the flywheel ) as in your first example.
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Excellent - thankyou :)
Tim
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I have had to strip a Titan with 5hp Briggs this Am and have posted a few pics .You only need a 37mm across the flats nut which is 22mm deep to remove and tighten the clutch.the extra depth is needed so you can fit an adjustable or pipe wrench on the end, the full 22mm is not needed if you have welding gear as you can weld a socket on a shallow nut or hacksaw the 37mm hex out of some 6mm or thicker plate steel.BTW the nut in the picture is part of a fabricated tool for another use!
When fitting the key 3rd pic,on this occasion I was able to sit the FW on the shaft lined up at the start of the keyway.enter the key and slid them both on together while keeping pressure on the key with my thumb nail .
The key is normally a shade tighter than this but probably be due to the sub zero temperature that had contracted it .
Edit: if you remove yours this way,make sure you don't lose the 6 bearrings. inside starter drive clutch
hope this helps
smud6ie
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z15/mygrifter82/09012010459-1.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z15/mygrifter82/09012010460.jpg)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z15/mygrifter82/09012010457.jpg)
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Hi Dave !
I got some 'genuine' keys today.
Put it in as you suggested, put it all back together, it started - ran for 5 or 6 seconds-spluttered and died , wouldnt restart.
Took it all apart - key was slightly twisted.
Put new key in (it wasnt quite as tight as the first one) - wouldnt start.
Took it all apart again - key still perfect :wacko:
Reassembled with that key, it started - ran for 5 or 6 seconds - spluttered and died , wouldnt restart. >:( Key slightly twisted.
I dont know if this has anything to do with it but I am still unable to torque the starter assembly as i cant make a tool so I'm still drifting it a 1/4 turn around for now.
I have cleaned the points and re-gapped them to 20/1000".
Spark plug is at 30/1000".
Any ideas ? (or do you want to buy a rotovator ?!) ;)
Getting even more peeved with this,
Tim
Away for next 1 1/2 hours.
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OOooppps !
Dave,
Please could you post an image of the flywheel with the key in situ but before the washer goes on ?
I might see where Im going wrong :)
Tim
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Get a new condensor/ points set, dress them correctly, re-gap to 18 thou' and re-gap plug to 25 thou'.
Remove carb, strip, and replace gaskets/ diaphragms.
Sounds to me like you have more than the one problem. ;)
As these machines are getting a bit old now, I try to give the coil an easier life by not having to make a spark jump the same gap it had to when it was new. :)
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Hi, not wishing to be unkind but by just using a new key and then tightening the nut by the same method was just repeating what had failed before so was going to fail again.
Diagnosis is a process of elimination,you had adjusted and checked/rechecked the obvious areas except the condition of the condenser and coil which have not been successful so you have to eliminate the tightness of the FW by using a more contolled method than hitting it with a piece of wood.
It may turn out to not be the problem but but at least when tighened properly you can start to look in other areas if the key still shears.
You could make sure there is not rust or filling on the outer surface of the FW and magnet and there are no rub marks that suggest it might be contacting the laminations of the coil body.
How much gap is there between the lamiations and the coil? this can alter by improper use of a lever to lock the FW .
The machine that I was working on has now gone back so i no longer have it available take a pic .
Anyway see how you get on with those other suggestions and we will go from there.
smud6ie
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Hi, firstly the flywheel has to be tight on the taper. Remove the key and put a smear of valve grinding paste on the taper, then replace the flywheel and grind it backwards and forwards until both surfaces have a grey cast after the paste is cleaned off. Make sure all traces of paste are removed with petrol and replace the key. 55ft lbs is quite tight, so if you are knocking the starter clutch round with a drift, be aware of this.
If the engine still won’t run for more than a few seconds, the likely cause is either the engine is not getting enough fuel or the magneto coil has had it. Checking a coil that works for a few seconds then breaks down is easier said than done, but a quick way of checking for a fuel problem is to remove the air filter and dribble a small amount of petrol down the air intake whilst the engine runs, if it continues to run as long as you are pouring fuel in, the fault is probably with the carb. If you do need a new coil, get one for contact-less ignition as, once fitted, the flywheel does not have to come off again. The points gap is 0.020” and the gap from the mag armature to the flywheel magnets is 0.010” to 0.014”.
Regards, Richard
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Thanks for the replies !
I am in the process of getting a tool made for the torquing process.
Just waiting for that to be done and some time & weather to enable me to continue :)
Cheers,
Tim
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Hi All !
I got it running ! :lol:
My problem was two-fold :
1)Over-rich mixture and 2)method of tightening the starter assembly.
First one was caused by me fiddling whilst wiping down the engine, the other cause was ignorance.
You can tighten the flywheel without the special tool, but i would recommend that you use it !
My method :
Remove the pulley/belt guard on LHS of engine. Lock off the output shaft with a chain wrench (as I did) or molegrips so it rests under the guard stay.
Fit flywheel, insert key, put washer on, then starter assembly to hand tightness.
Using the special tool ( I used water pump pliers to grip the starter assembly as my tool isnt finshed yet ) tighten the assembly to specified torque ( or a good solid tightness if using my method ).
Reassemble flywheel side of engine.
Fill up fuel tank, pull out choke, move throttle to 'full'.
Start her up, and quickly adjust the mixture screw to give an even speed (i used my ears).
Let it get to fully hot and adjust mixture again if neccessary.
Throttle back to idle and adjust mixture to give an even speed.
Recheck full speed again for eveness, adjusting mixture minutely if needed.
Thats it , done
Thanks to all of you who contributed,
Tim
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My tool - total parts :
90mm x 60mm 4mm gauge steel plate
4 x M8 cap bolts with nuts
Drill bits - 6mm, 8mm, 10mm and 13mm
A 19mm 1/2" socket to be welded to the plate for the torque wrench to be used.
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What it will look like when its finished.
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Hi All !
I got it running ! :lol:
My problem was two-fold :
1)Over-rich mixture and 2)method of tightening the starter assembly.
First one was caused by me fiddling whilst wiping down the engine, the other cause was ignorance.
You can tighten the flywheel without the special tool, but i would recommend that you use it !
My method :
Remove the pulley/belt guard on LHS of engine. Lock off the output shaft with a chain wrench (as I did) or molegrips so it rests under the guard stay.
Fit flywheel, insert key, put washer on, then starter assembly to hand tightness.
Using the special tool ( I used water pump pliers to grip the starter assembly as my tool isnt finshed yet ) tighten the assembly to specified torque ( or a good solid tightness if using my method ).
Reassemble flywheel side of engine.
Fill up fuel tank, pull out choke, move throttle to 'full'.
Start her up, and quickly adjust the mixture screw to give an even speed (i used my ears).
Let it get to fully hot and adjust mixture again if neccessary.
Throttle back to idle and adjust mixture to give an even speed.
Recheck full speed again for eveness, adjusting mixture minutely if needed.
Thats it , done
Thanks to all of you who contributed,
Tim
Well done for perservearing,Just one obsevatiion re the full speed setting,it should be set to the rich side of even running with no load on .that way when the rotavator is under load the mixture will be right
smud6ie
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Cheers Dave,
Thanks for the info re: full speed mixture.
Will adjust slightly as suggested.
Thanks again !
Tim