[joyfull]

the coucou is definatly a hybrid unlike the cuckoo maran - cuckoo marans can be sexed when they are young by the black and white bars (but don't ask me as I got it the wrong way round with Lizzies and Muffin turned out to be a great big strapping cockerel not a hen  ).

[gsc]

Oh my this is going to be a really fun subject.  I love all that genetics stuff and color prediction.

I guess he mentioned the coucou for information but, if I have understood correctly, the parentage of my Bluebelle was just a question of it being Maran x RIR rather than RIR x Maran?

I am so curious to know what the difference might be.  I am fascinated by the idea that it can actually make a difference.  I have ordered a couple of books so I can try and learn a bit more.

I think the chap I got my girls off is probably quite happy to chat to people who are interested.  It is clearly a great passion for him, but he's very busy and I don't want to make a nuisance of myself asking too many questions.

And guess what - I sooooooo have to have a go at this.  Neighbours be damned - I can't do it without a cockerel or two 

[gsc]

It's begining to sink in.

A Gold Star Ranger and an Amber Star have the same parents, Lt Sussex and RIR but will be white or brown depending on
Lt Sussex x RIR (White)
or
RIR x Lt Sussex (Brown)

I guess that's over simplifying. 

I've just seen one breeder describe one of his hybrids as coming from 'various types of RIR'.  Does that mean it's a bit pot luck if you hatch the eggs or buy young?  Or do you get to say I prefer such and such a type?

[joyfull]

you get RIR's with different styles of combs so as you see there are even more things to consider 

[gsc]

you get RIR's with different styles of combs so as you see there are even more things to consider 

OK OK I get it.  Just because I'm paranoid - it doesn't mean you're not all out to get me.  I can see as fast as I think I am getting the hang of it, you lot are going to find me something else to think about.

Now why did I ever think there was going to be time for gardening in amongst the hens.

[joyfull]

the chickens will help you garden - they love to pull up seedlings, bulbs, eat worms by getting as close to your spade as they can just to make you panic about whether or nor you have chopped their feet off, they love to help you pick tomatoes, sweetcorn, cabbage, cauli, cherries, strawberries, raspberries etc as you can see they are very helpfull 
Then in the freshly dug earth after dust bathing they will lay down on one side with a wing outstretched and eyes closed so you race over there thinking that they may have passed over to the great big coup in the sky where they will suddenly bounce up with a look on their face as if to say What?? 

[cluckingnuts]

Oh my this is going to be a really fun subject.  I love all that genetics stuff and color prediction.

I guess he mentioned the coucou for information but, if I have understood correctly, the parentage of my Bluebelle was just a question of it being Maran x RIR rather than RIR x Maran?

I am so curious to know what the difference might be.  I am fascinated by the idea that it can actually make a difference.  I have ordered a couple of books so I can try and learn a bit more.

I think the chap I got my girls off is probably quite happy to chat to people who are interested.  It is clearly a great passion for him, but he's very busy and I don't want to make a nuisance of myself asking too many questions.

And guess what - I sooooooo have to have a go at this.  Neighbours be damned - I can't do it without a cockerel or two 

In order for the Bluebelle to be all blue the Marans would have to be E/E based + not E^R as in FCB as the resulting young will have coloured hackles. E is dominant to e^Wh (as in RIR) , so it does no matter really which way round.  The blue could come from either.
Personally if I was trying to breed a similar bird, I would use RIR cock x splash cuckoo Marans hen. The cocks would be E/e^Wh, Bl/bl+, B/b+, and the hens E/e^Wh, Bl/bl+, b+/-.
So, as can be seen, this would make all hens blue unicolour and all the cocks barred blue.

[gsc]

In order for the Bluebelle to be all blue the Marans would have to be E/E based + not E^R as in FCB as the resulting young will have coloured hackles. E is dominant to e^Wh (as in RIR) , so it does no matter really which way round.  The blue could come from either.
Personally if I was trying to breed a similar bird, I would use RIR cock x splash cuckoo Marans hen. The cocks would be E/e^Wh, Bl/bl+, B/b+, and the hens E/e^Wh, Bl/bl+, b+/-.
So, as can be seen, this would make all hens blue unicolour and all the cocks barred blue.

eeek!!!  Give me chance - the postman hasn't been with my chicken breeding books yet. 

Thanks for the info.  I will get to work fathoming it all out.

[hillfooter]

Just what I thought!

I think I now know why I try to stick with pure breeds.  At least there's some chance they will be consistent.  It's just as I've often said when people post on here what temperment does an Amberlink Blue Star Bovan Ranger have?  The growing enthusiast craze for chicken keeping has caused the market for attractive looking high production hens to explode.  Every small breeder is trying their hand at this hybrid malarky and producing their unique genetic mix which is likely to be unrepeatable in future generations since the genetic make up isn't well controlled.  Large commercial breeders keep a very tight control on genetic make up with tightly managed breeder flocks from which they produce each generation.  Small breeders experiment and give their results some fancy name or sometimes a variant on an established cross.  So I expect in future generations every hybrid will look an anonomous brown colour lay like stink and be dead in 18months or is that just an obsessive "Brave New World" view of the future?

Ascribing particular characteristics to chickens of unknown parentage and genetic makeup with fancy names is just a flyte of fancyful whimsy, a waste of time.  A bit like discussing your horoscope and expecting all Aquarians to be the same.  We might as well discuss how many angels will fit on the head of a pin because my RIR X Maran X?? might be entirely different from your Maran X RIR X LS.

Oh did I mention that crosses between (true) pure breeds are technically known as 'first crosses' so actually a RIR X SS, is a first cross not a hybrid.  You will have noticed that many hybrids are described as "RIR X SS" or vice versa and yet are completely different demonstrating their complex and non pure genetic make up.   I've now got to find a fancy name for my VW X SS first crosses produced due to an accident of egg selection on my part.  Anyone got any suggestions and could someone tell me if they will be active and alert, make good pets, have long egg laying lives and lay well through the winter?

Happy speculating
HF

[gsc]

Way to go Hillfooter - that I get.  It will save me asking some dumb questions because I was struggling to get how some of these 'crosses from crosses' can produce in a predictable manner, unless the cross itself is bred to the point where it's genetic make-up is so consistent you could breed it to itself and get a predictable result.

Just had a gas leak so waiting for the engineer - with a bit of luck then my books will arrive and I can sit in the run with my girls and read for a while while hubby is away fishing. 

[gsc]

PS - Got the RIR stuff from
INHERITANCE, OF PLUMAGE COLOR IN THE RHODE ISLAND RED BREED OF DOMESTIC
FRANK A. HAYS

But I think that's pretty old so I deleted my post above.

Are RIR genetically eWh with one barring gene?

Edit:  Just read "The Rhode Island Red is homozygous for recessive wheaten"

[GrannieAnnie]

I agree with you Hillfooter, I think now too many small breeders are crossing al sort to get something else, and its like the old song about the melting pot.  One day everything will be brown, including people!

I am just going to try my first crossing of a RIR with the Plymouth Barred Rocks, but will continue to buy my HYBRIDS from the commercial hatchery, and I will continue to try crossing my new Indian Game Cockerel with various dual purpose breeds to see what weights we get for the table, but will keep my pure breeds as pure as I can. Although I can only hope my pure breeds are pure! lol  They look it!

I think I'll now let you techy lot keep talking about your E's B's and other letters!   

[gsc]

Lol GrannyAnnie - It's good fun till it takes you half an hour to write a post then you look back at it and suddenly what you've written doesn't make any sense at all.

However - it's a rainy day so time to swot.

[GrannieAnnie]

Mmmm rainy day here means I can put all the clean clothes away that I've washed over the past 2 weeks and just dumped on the bed in the spare room, sorted out a couple of cupboards, thinking I may have to do a bit of ironing, hanging up my today's washing in the spare room because its raining,

and not having to be outside feeding, watering (did that first thing before rain started!) cleaning out hen houses and trying to get the spare drinkers and feeders washed out and dried and put away.  To name but a few outside jobs I have and that's not mentioning the state of the garden and greenhouses!!