Is this a pecking order ??

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dilsdaisy

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Is this a pecking order ??
« on: February 09, 2011, 12:49 »
Hi , posted before about my 3 yr old ( inherited) Light Sussex Maggie being on her own and needing some housemates since her Toy Boy Cockerel  had to be rehomed and her sidekick Betty succumbed to Mrs Fox .. anyway so after some advice from on here, we separated the henhouse down the middle with chicken wire and similar with the attached run , and got two newcomers  Rita (Buff Orpington 6 months) & BettyToo (Brahma 8 months) on one side and Maggie on the other, with a 'shared' feeder
Maggie has done some louding rosey on occasion when Rita has gone to the feeder first , from which Rita backs down and Rita is definitely the boss over BettyToo giving her a firm peck on the back of the head if she dares to feed before her after which BettyToo dutifully goes and queues behind  :wub:  ... other than that all is fairly calm

So when we introduce them fully does this sound like a pecking order has started to be sorted out? ... I would expect Maggie to be top hen, then Rita and last Betty ..so the big question for a newbie like me is what is a 'normal' pecking order behaviour and what is over the top aggressive behaviour ? ( just so I am prepared )

Thanks ( be gentle!)
1x Light Sussex, 1 x Brahma, 1x Buff Orpington, 2 x cats , 2 x guinea pigs, 4 x kids , 1 x husband

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Casey76

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 13:05 »
Pecking order fights can be quite aggressive and vicious, especially if you have two dominant hens.  Unless someone draws blood i would just let them get on with it, even if it does look frightening!

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dilsdaisy

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 15:14 »
Thanks .. think will do the big full intro this weekend and see how it goes (altho now have chicken buying fever and quite fancy a couple more  ??? it is an addiction starting I can feeeel it!)

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PaulineM

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 15:38 »
Hi
When we got 2 new girls our original girls threw themselves at the wire to try to get at the new girls! :ohmy:
When it was time to mix them they still attack the new girls and drew blood from their combs  :( we just stayed with them and kept things as calm as possible, it was tense for a few days and the newbies were not allowed to go into the coop at night   :(
But now the new girls have slowly moved up the pecking order and they are one big happy family  :D
1 Hubby, 2 children, 2 Welsummers, 1 Leghorn Banty, 1 Wyandotte Banty, 1 Barnevelder, 2 Isa Brown, 1 Rhode Island, 1 Goldline,1 Maran, 2 Mottled Leghorns, 1 Leghorn cockerel & 2 Jack Russells

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hillfooter

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 16:42 »
Some people use antipeck spray in all situations where chx peck one another but personally I don't think this is needed in any situation.  There's three reason's hens will peck each other

1  Introducing new hens to an existing flock which is established will cause the old hens to defend their territory.  They will try to drive off the intruders and will protect their food and water and restrict the new birds integrating.  They may fight visciously pecking and flying at the intruder with their claws.  This is perfectly natural behaviour which antipeck spray won't stop.    Injury can occur so the answer is to introduce them gradually,  when they are finally integrated having several sets of feeding stations will prevent the food guarding behaviour.  Any aggression (if any) will eventually subside.

2  Pecking order establishment.  Once the new hen(s) are accepted into the flock there will be a pecking order to sort out.  The hens will do this and establish an order by pecking each other and usually this isn't a dangerous or viscious process and injury rarely occurs.  Establishing pecking order is a perfectly normal and natural behaviour which must occur in any healthy flock and you shouldn't use antipeck spray to attempt to suppress it.  The top hen will expect all the others to defer to it and will peck the lower hens to remind them who's boss.  Any kind of flamboyant behaviour such as loud crowing or wing flapping will be taken as attention seeking and an attempt to move up the pecking order and will be quickly suppressed with a few sharp pecks.  Defering to the higher hen around feeders and at roost time so the top hens get their choice of roost is normal and any hen who steps out of line will usually get a sharp peck to remind her of her position.  These types of reinforcing behaviours aren't usually viscious.

3  Feather eating /plucking.  This is abnormal behaviour and must be cured by finding the cause and eliminating it.  Usually it's to do with overcrowding, boredom, incorrect nutrition or husbandry, parasite infestation or the hens not being encouraged to be active foraging animals.  Find the cause and hopefully the behaviour can be cured.  If it becomes an ingrained habit there are two ways to prevent injury and break the habit, a period of separation or a beak bit which prevents feathers being plucked.  Both these methods don't require antipeck spray which is a brute force technique which attacks the symptoms without tackling the underlying cause.  

It's always best with any behavioural problem to use a birds natural behaviour to cure a problem rather than force them to conform to our way of behaving.  A flock is a natural cooperative and letting it work as it has done for countless centuraries is best.  So unless serious injury is likely to result if unchecked, it's best to let them sort it out without open intervention.  Forcing them to behave in a particular unnatural way is only likely to lead to stress and further abnormal behaviour.  In many years of chicken keeping I've never used antipeck spray though I have very ocassionally used a beak bit on a rogue hen, who has developed a feather plucking habit, when other methods have failed.  I've not needed to do this for several years now and I reckon knowing how to respond and use their natural behaviour to cure them is much preferable to brute force solutions.

Here's a Vorwerk with a beak bit which prevents feather plucking.


HF
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 18:53 by hillfooter »
Truth through science.

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chasechicken

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 17:03 »
When we introduced a newbie it took about 2 weeks for the fighting to calm down, but after about 4 weeks they were all best of friends.

We used a large cat carrier for the new one and put her up on the perch with the others - that way they could see and smell (?) each other without causing harm.  We had two sections of run so she had one.  After a while, we let the others out of the run and they could go around to see her in her bit.  After a while, we let her out in the garden with them, and so on.

I did think the others would kill her at times but she was always ok (we didn't let it get too bad) and they do love each other now, in the way chickens love each other...

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dilsdaisy

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 18:40 »
Thanks for all that everyone .. gives me an idea what to expect and what to do  :) eventhough there is loads to learn I am really enjoying the whole 'chicken keeping thang' heaps at the moment

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ManicMum

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 19:47 »
Behind the beautiful VW, there is another bird with even more distinctive markings: what breed is that, please - it's really striking.
ManicMum

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Casey76

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 19:52 »
I thnk it's a barnvelder :)

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Lindeggs

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 21:17 »
I can't wait to get my chickens and begin to observe their behaviour first-hand!  I'm all in favour of using their natural behaviour to sort out any problems and really admire the advice of experienced keepers like Hillfooter.

BUT... (did you guess there would be a but?)

In their natural environment there would be at least one rooster taking care of each flock.  To what extent is the intervention of the rooster required to stop arguments getting out of hand?

In a roosterless flock, surely the human is there to take the place of the rooster.  Are there circumstances under which a human should step in and break up a scuffle?

For those who have roosters, under what conditions does he intervene, and how does he go about it?  eg physically getting between the two hens, pecking one or the other, flapping, giving 'verbal' warnings?

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hillfooter

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 03:50 »
I thnk it's a barnvelder :)

Indeed it is a Gold Laced Barnevelder (Dutch hen) and I agree with the comment thay are a beautiful well feathered chicken.  They always look stuning after a moult which is right now.  I'll try and get a photo or two of them in their current top condition.  They lay a reasonably dark brown egg though nowhere near the plain chocolate coloured ones of a Marans on Sue's site.

Re cockerels and the question do your hens need them.  In a word no.  Unless you want to breed from your hens I wouldn't bother with a cockerel.  There's no real need from a disipline perspective and young cockerels tend to pull the hens about quite a lot.  They are constantly trying to mount them and they grab them by the hackles to get them to mate so the hens permanently have a bald patch at the back of their heads.

Cockerels are also frequently aggressive towards people.  Of the 13 or so cocks I have kept over the last 7 or 8 years about 5 have been aggressive two of whom I culled because they were so bad.

The Vorwerk cock in the photo (Sylvester) is however a real sweety and isn't very rough with the hens and isn't aggressive at all with people.  If you can get a nice natured cockerel it does open up an extra dimension of behaviour to observe in the flock.  An attentive cockerel will take a paternal protective role feeding the hens and acting as a guard.   However I find there's little need to have a cockerel for disipline among the hens, they don't squabble to any extent and this roll which I've heard people claim they play is I think a little fanciful.  I've certainly known hens who have kept agressive cockerels from attacking me by interposing themselves between me and the cockerel.

If you do keep a cockerel it's important that you don't appear as a rival so triggering his aggressive behaviour and if you hand feed make sure you throw the food to the cockerel first so he can "give" it to the hens.

HF

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joyfull

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 05:17 »
I have 7 cockerels and none are aggressive towards people at all, however they can be a little bit aggressive towards the hens in their eagerness  ;), but this is only in their first year - after that things calm down. They do keep things calmer and if any of the hens have a squabble the top boy will go running to sort out the problem. Like hens they have their own pecking order and each knows where they are allowed and how close to the top boy they can get without being chased by him. Sadly although mine are all friendly I have had aggressive ones given me and after trying to calm them down they have ended up being culled as it seems to be impossible to alter this trait  :(. I have the boys as I do like to hear them early in the morning (although this can be as early as 4am) and I love to watch them show the girls where any tasty treats are  :)
Staffies are softer than you think.

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dilsdaisy

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 07:06 »
I found Rodney our RIR Cockerel fascinating to watch and he was lovely , not aggressive at all ....desperately hoped his crow would stay at the barking stage for ever so we could keep him , but unfortunately he found his crow at 5am every day and then quite a lot during the day and the neighbours although very patient with our failed attempts to try and sort out the noise finally had enough ..so he had to go  :( but hopefully he is enjoying his new home in North Wales and one day when I win the lottery and have my rural idyll I will have another! ...very jealous of your set up joyfull its sounds great

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Sassy

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 08:40 »
When you introduce neww chooks always have extra feeding stations this can help kepp things calmer :)
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted!!

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gibbo

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Re: Is this a pecking order ??
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 17:14 »
I was recomended to get a cockerel to sort out my hen that has got a bit full of her self.  I have four hens two legbars and two wellsummers.  The cockerel i got was a bantie mille fluer. His size is no isue for him and takes no hassel from the girls! However he is too small to do any damage to the girls feathers.  He is so tame too! Not sure if it has sorted out margo's bad attitude. Glad i got him though.


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