[cals chicks]

hi some of are egg shells are wrinkly like dried prunes. is this ok or do i need to do something to help the chickens. they are ex batt if that makes a diffrence. cheers cals chicks

[hillfooter]

When you say wrinkly do you mean soft shelled or are they hard shelled with wrinkly ridges and uneven shaped?  

If the former the fact that they are exbatts is likely to be significant particularly if they are being rehabilitated.  Google "Osteoporosis", "Cage Fatigue" or "soft shelled eggs" and follow advice on increasing calcium uptake and increasing vitamin D3  (cod liver oil and oily fish are sources as is sunshine).  Vit D is vital to enable them to metabolise calcium needed for egg shells,  birds kept indoors in cages often lack this vital vitamin and need a supplement, at least initially to rehab them.  A vit  supplement (which contains this particular vit) maybe be useful as might any of the several egg quality calcium/ vit D potions available from bird feed suppliers.  If the "eggs" are not properly formed and don't contain a normal yolk and white and are leathery and wrinkly then they are known as "lashes" and are indicative of more serious problems than a deficiency.  Such a condition may recover naturally (as can soft eggs) with proper nutrition and good husbandry and exercise but it can also be a precursor to the end of useful laying.  Softshelled eggs and lashes can cause the birds to look very depressed and ill as they often have difficulty passing them as the rhythmic muscle contractions which move an egg down the oviduct is nor as effective in gripping a soft egg.  They will quickly perk up after laying them.  The danger is that they can cause egg binding if they aren't passed and you should watch out for signs of this ie frequent visits to the nestbox with no results, general lethargy and tail down hunched looking depression.  Google "egg binding" for more info if you suspect this.  This can be a serious condition if not treated.

If the shells are normal hard shells but just wrinkley it's possible they have Infectious Bronchitis (or have suffered from it as young birds, again google this for more info on this condition).  This is known to damage the reproductive system and causes such effects, particularly in older birds.  There's no treatment though keeping them well hydrated is thought to help and giving them an electrolyte in their drinking water is worth a try.

Mix in 3litres of water
5 ml of Salt substitute, (1 teaspoon of potassium chlorite)
7.5 ml (1 and a half teaspoons) of Bicarbarbonate of soda (baking soda)
15 ml (3 teaspoons) salt

Give this exclusively for them to drink for 7 days.  Repeat periodically every month if found to be effective.

Ensure they have crushed oystershell available adlib and a sprinkling of limestone flower in their feed for 2 weeks maybe of benefit but don't do this continuously as too much calcium is bad (gross excess can be fatal) too.

You may have to accept that some exbatts will always have health issues and will not be as robust and live as long as normal chickens.
Best of luck
HF

[wolverine]

hi hillfooter you mention to much calcium being bad how much is to much one of my girls seems to only lay a hard shelled egg if I give her a bit everyday I hope I'm not overdoing it I would hate it if I killed them with to much. !!!

[hillfooter]

hi hillfooter you mention to much calcium being bad how much is to much one of my girls seems to only lay a hard shelled egg if I give her a bit everyday I hope I'm not overdoing it I would hate it if I killed them with to much. !!!

Hi Wolverine my apologies for not responding sooner.  I saw your post but wasn't able to reply immediately them forgot in which thread it was.  In replying to someone elso on exbatts egg shell problems I've found it.

The general answer is nonlaying growers need around 1% for good bone development but once they start laying their consumption increases to around 2.5 to 4%.  However this is very general and indivuduals requirements can vary.  The danger with excess is that kidney stones can occur which is a serious condition leading to kidney damage.  A healthy chicken which has no kidney damage will regulate it's calcium needs and dispose of the excess in it's urinates but if this regulation or it's kidneys have sustained damage due to infection this may not work efficiently.  I'm sure you know that the proportion of other nutrients is also important to facilitate calcium absorption such as phosphorous and Vit D3.  A calcium deficiency can be due to an imbalence of these too.  Layers pellets have what is considered to be a balenced proportion.

In human medicine the right level of drugs are often checked by pathology tests to check for positive effects and potentialy damaging effects or indicators and the dosage adjusted accordingly.  Such as strategy is impractical on cost grounds for chickens so erring on the side of caution is best.

My strategy is to always feed a staple diet of layers pellets and only use supplements to address a specific issue.  It's important to have an expected outcome in mind and if that's not achieved then stop giving the supplement and even when it is achieved stop it or cut it back as the condition may be just transitory.  The danger is calcium is often cited in egg laying problems and giving a supplement is suggested.  If there's no response the danger is that the dosage level will be increased or the duration of treatment extended in the hope that it will work better.  This strategy can lead to gross excess as you end up with your chickens being given a useless and potentially damaging cocktail of supplements as a regular practise.

See this  link for a more detail veterinary discussion of urolithiasis and kidney damage. http://www.dekalbpoultry.com/vetinfo/VSB%201040699.pdf

Hope this helps
HF

[hillfooter]

hi hillfooter you mention to much calcium being bad how much is to much one of my girls seems to only lay a hard shelled egg if I give her a bit everyday I hope I'm not overdoing it I would hate it if I killed them with to much. !!!

[wolverine]

Thanks, so basically now she is laying perfectly normally again lay off with the limestone I also give them 10 ml rougly per ltr of apple cider vinegar in thier water everyay is that likely to be harmfull??? They have farmgate layers pellets out all the time

[hillfooter]

Thanks, so basically now she is laying perfectly normally again lay off with the limestone I also give them 10 ml rougly per ltr of apple cider vinegar in thier water everyay is that likely to be harmfull??? They have farmgate layers pellets out all the time

Yes I'd halve the limestone flour for a couple of weeks and if there's no ill effect stop it entirely.

ACV is a religious thing in my view.  Never seen any really credible report of benefit and all the arguements for potential benefits I've seen aren't convining in my opinion.  The fad about ACV was fueled in the 50's when a seminal alternative medicine book started a craze in the US for human consumption.  If you want to feed ACV you can use apples which at this time of year windfalls are plentiful.  Any red skinned fruit will contain more valuable nutrients than ACV.  It's long been the practise to keep chx in orchards as a double benefit of cleaning up windfall apples and nourishing chx.  The acid in ACV killing bacteria is a bit of a red herring too as there are plenty of acid loving bacteria in ACV.  I've seen scientific trials of apple pulp the by-product of cider making being used in animal feed and I think the conclusions were that there's no economic benefit in it's use which means it's not a marketable commodity.  ACV is in the same boat in my opinion other than the hydration benefit.

Having said that there's no evidence I know of that says it's bad for chx either and the good news is that it seems to encourage drinking lots of water which is no bad thing (you would be thirsty too if you drank vinegar!).  I use it ocassionally if I want my hens to drink more ie in hot weather or after a dehydrating illness which has caused enteritis loose droppings (I can't spell diarrhoea or can I?).  Which is consistent with my philosophy.

Best regards
HF

[hillfooter]

Re ACV -here's a link to a site on the supposed benefits of ACV.
 
http://www.oohoi.com/natural%20remedy/everyday_food/benefits-of-apple-cider-vinegar.htm.

There are are plenty of others out there with a different set of benefits such as being a good source of antioxidants which are these days regarded as a falacy and potentially injurous to health.  See the Cancer Research Associations recommendations on antioxidants for the treatment of cancer, once thought to be a possible lucrative avenue to explore.

I've heard it said the skin in ACV is great for digestion so just to prove there's always two sides to any piece of folklore here's a paste from an ACV supporting site.

 "Sadly, you may want to peel your apple and throw away the skin. Why ? First, because apple is one of those fruits that contain the highest pesticides residues. Second, because most apples are waxed to give it a beautiful shine. Not only will you eat the wax, you would also eat the pesticides trapped by the wax."

I remember we once moved into a house which had an orchard and several victoria plum trees.  That year there was a bumper harvest and we ate plums every day for weeks, in the fruit bowl, in pies, as jam and so on.  We came out in a very itchy red blotchy rash which the doctor diagnosed as a reaction to excessive acid in our diets!  So everything in moderation.

HF

[wolverine]

ok well I was told something about ph levels in the gut and worm prevention but you obviously know your stuff I'll knock it on the head but one more question my apple cider vinegar has garlic added. any wise thoughts about giving chickens garlic ?? I was told it helps against mites. is this all tree hugging hippy stuff???

[hillfooter]

ok well I was told something about ph levels in the gut and worm prevention but you obviously know your stuff I'll knock it on the head but one more question my apple cider vinegar has garlic added. any wise thoughts about giving chickens garlic ?? I was told it helps against mites. is this all tree hugging hippy stuff???

Hmmm gut ph effects of ACV I doubt that it has significant effect.  ACV is very acidic.  Oddly some some alternative medicine sources claim ACV to be alkaline and to neutralise (or normalise whatever that means) acidic levels in the body which sounds like pure nonsence to me.  The digestive tract contains very acidic elements so I doubt ACV has any effect in the concentration usually consumed.  ACV has a huge list of potential "cure all" benefits according to some alternative medicine sources and largely because of the lack of credibility of many of these claims ACV is regarded as just a lot of quackery by mainstream medicine.

Garlic when crushed does at least produce a compound which has antibiotic properties and raw garlic has been used as a folk medicine for rubbing on wounds as an antisceptic.  However I'm not sure if these properties are also retained when eaten.  Garlic is claimed to be beneficial for sore throats but again that's due to contact.  It may also be beneficial for fungal infections such as thrush and if so could be beneficial for chickens.  I don't see why you would want to mix it with ACV and if you did I would have thought that some of the claimed benefits of both would be destroyed.

Not every antibacterial compound works when in the body.  For example Fairy Liquid will kill cancer cells in a test tube but it isn't a cure for cancer and I wouldn't recommend you drink it.  Again alterative medicine has claimed alsorts of health benefits for garlic such as lowering cholesterol but a major clinical trial in 2007 found that garlic in whatever form taken did not reduce blood cholesterol levels in patients with moderately high baseline cholesterol levels.

Although animals and birds do not eat garlic in the wild as it's thought the strong taste repells them it has been eaten by people as a condiment for thousands of years so I would have thought any major problems would have been found by now.  So at worst it is probably harmless and at best it will have some antiseptic effects and it has the added benefits of warding off vampires

If you want to read about some of the nonsense propagated by the alternative medicine brigade you should read Ben Goldacres very amusing and readable book "Bad Science" in which he debunks many of the claims and practises of psuedo science.  It's aimed at human medicine but has parallels in animal medicine too and you will come to recognise the hallmarks of unscrupulous companies who line their pockets at our expense by exploiting our vulnerability with subtle deception.

HF

[wolverine]

Thanks hillfooter great replies. seriously though mate get some sleep what a time to be replying to posts ha ha I'm guessing  you dont work a day shift.
i'll take a look at the book sounds interesting
 thanks again
ben (aka)
 wolverine

[Chicken Pete]

Hillfooter
Been reading you informative notes re this subject and I would like you input if poss.
I have 13 chickens 12 are 'Bramlies' (mis-spelt) 23 months old and 1 'old' girl over 3 years old.
and we get the odd rough shelled egg, the rest are light brown.  Could this odd egg be down to the old girl due to her age?