Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: green_fingered_ash on October 08, 2009, 23:39
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who actually uses it? is it a requirement? i;ve looked it up and it seems to reduce my productivity, where i could be growing winter and spring cabbages and kale it would be limited to only 1/5 of the plot???
so do you use crop rotation or just plant everything anywhere?
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Well I use it - the point of it being that you prevent a build-up of pests and diseases in the soil, and that nutrients are not too depleted by constant use of the same family of plants.
Over time, not rotating is likely also reduce your productivity for the stated reasons.
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I use it too, though if I have spaces I tend to use them and fill in, trying to avoid the same crops in the same place each year.
Works well for me. Don't forget if you use crop rotation it is not set in stone.... you can adapt it for your own needs :D
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Not all crops need to adhere to the same rotation gap.
Unless your site has a history of clubroot, more likely on old sites with heavy soil, brassicas are OK with a 1/3 rotation. Potatoes ditto for eelworm, more likely on light soils.
Onions on the other hand are best with a 6 year gap to avoid white rot.
If disease starts to appear either widen the rotation or give the crop a miss for a year or two.
Probably more important is general plot hygiene, e.g destroy diseased plants, be careful what goes on the compost heap.
Also be careful where you obtain plants. Here I am thinking especially of brassicas where it is easy to accept young plants from a kind neighbour and in doing so import clubroot. Other examples might be strawberry runners with virus, leek plants with leek moth maggots.
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think i can stretch to a 4 year rotation whilst still using most of the space (planting winter vegetables in place of any vegetables that mature by august, everything else will be sprinkled with green manure seeds :)
i guess its not to bad, although i will end up with alot of vegetables i wont be able to use, but who would turn down organic veg as a free gift lol :)
its actually funny the first crop i will get from my allotment will most likely be a winter crop
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I certainly use it, and find that by intercroppping with non-rotationals like salad leaves, summer radish and other odds and ends in the beds where I have 'families' where I would be growing less, it keeps the shape of the rotation quite well.
The info on the link on the Home Page is useful too :D
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I rotate the spuds. Everything else goes all over the place; in batches/pockets/intermixed, and only if I get major problems do I make sure that area is avoided for the next 3 years. I usually just fill a space with 'something different' all year round. As their neighbours mature and get harvested the newbies can grow on.
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I have 4 large beds and so a 4 yr plan.
Everything follows the spud patch. Peseason it is double digged than manured. Than when harvested, mustard is sown and dug in.
Lime is than applied and allowed to settle before the Broad Beans are sown into a third of it. The rest has grazing rye. The legumes and some caulies go in here as well in Spring.
The last crop in the cycle is the Alliums as the soil needn't be too rich.
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I use a 5 year rotation but have a good big plot, if i was pushed to get in greens I would only use a spot that had not been used in previous two to two and half years. Lots of flexibility by putting sweetcorn, courgettes, salads etc where i want and still keep the plants that need rotation such as greens, potatoes, peas and beans, onions etc in 5 year rotation. Rotation is not just about disease control but also about best use of manure, lime, and getting ph to suit the crop.
R
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i have identified 6 different familys of over winter veg to use, hopefully when some veg finish early i can just bung in a different family (or the same depending etc) and grow through winter. im guessing in the end half my plot will be over winter veg and the other half green manure which aint all bad.
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Before I did any reading up on here I laid out my plot, an elegant design, with tyres, bean poles, compost heap, water butt, raised beds and gravel paths a wonderful thing to behold on the computer screen I even considered were the sun would be at different times of day. Then I put in the manual labour and produced it in reality. Looked great, I was a happy bunny but then I read about crop rotation and realised that my lay out would not be at all practical for proper rotation. To small an area for spuds, onions don't climb poles, etc. So more manual labour later I have lay out that should cope with a four year rotation scheme. I think it was worth it. If nothing else it should reduce the chances of pests and nasties spoiling my efforts and keep the slugs guessing were the brassicas will be next.
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I do something similar to Zazen.
Spuds take up the largest area for a single crop and these are moved around and get the majority of the manure. Other things go in where they can, but never follow like with like.
You can get too wound up with worry about rotation and graphic design. All these things are much more easily sorted with a pencil and the back of an old envelope.
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"You can get too wound up with worry about rotation and graphic design. All these things are much more easily sorted with a pencil and the back of an old envelope."
Presumably you then keep all your envelopes so that you have a record of what was grown where in earlier years.
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I always use rotation. Got 10 raised beds so quite easy not to get mixed up, I use the back of a beer mat :nowink:
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4 year rotation for me.
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"You can get too wound up with worry about rotation and graphic design. All these things are much more easily sorted with a pencil and the back of an old envelope."
Presumably you then keep all your envelopes so that you have a record of what was grown where in earlier years.
For those who don't trust themselves to find their old envolopes and who have Excel (or similar spreadsheet program) and very basic knowledge of how to use it, here is a picture of what I use to plan the rotation of my crops in my main veg bed.
The rows and columns are adjusted to form squares, each of which represents one of the 18" paving slabs which surround my plot, which makes it easy to transfer the plan to the actual garden. The individual crops are positioned using "Text boxes" which can be moved around, resized and written in to describe the crop (and any subsequent info you might want to add for your records). For the following year simply copy the worksheet, rename it, and move your "crops" around again as you see fit.
You finish up with an ongoing record of what you grew, where, and if you want, any comments about how well or badly everything did.
If anyone wants a fuller description, or a copy of the spreadsheet to use as a template let me know and I will endeavour to oblige.
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What a fantasitic idea. I am pretty good with an Excel spreadsheet, so I may well do this :)
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Yep - that certainly looks doable.
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Great idea JayG! I've been using Visio at work and it's easy but don't have it at home, so Excel is a good option...
M
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I do something similar in Excel - joining the cells together to make "beds"; not to scale, but good enough for a handy-diagram.
I also have a spreadsheet to help with planning what veg to grow, which anyone is welcome to. Details in this thread:
http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=34306.msg411041#msg411041
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I am so lost. I have a very non-visual memory and I just can't work out from the graphics in books and online whether it means DO or DON'T follow X with Y.
So here's my question:
In which of last year's crops bed, should I plant onions this year?!
The choices are:
Potatoes
Cauliflowers
Carrots and parsnips
Peas and beans
Sweetcorn
Pumpkins
or
Leeks?
Thank you very much !
ZE
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Here is what is generally advised...but written out for you :)
A simple rotation is,
After potatoes .... grow peas and beans.
After peas and beans ......grow the cauliflower and cabbages
After cauliflower and cabbages..... grow onions, carrots & parsnips
After onions and carrots etc ...grow potatoes.
All the other things sweetcorn, pumpkins and courgettes can go anywhere you fancy without too many problems. leeks are the same but a lot of people use the space that their early potatoes leave.
So the answer to your question, the onions go where the cauliflower grew :)
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Thank you a lot.
After a lot of head scratching, I had come up with the idea of putting them after potatoes.
The book (which I found after a 2 hour search) I have has these 5 groups for a 5 bed rotation:
Peas and beans
Broccoli cauliflowers and other brassicas
Sweetcorn tomatoes and courgettes
Onions garlic and leeks
Potatoes, parsnips, carrots, swedes
But I'm sure you're right, which goes to show that maybe it's not so vital after all...(apart from certain exceptions).
Appreciate your input !
E
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Zoe; apart from slotting in Toms, that's the same rotation as MOS has put.
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mumofstig - thanks for that, maximum sense on what goes after what - I can remember this without too much trouble.
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well I never could remember so I wrote it at the back of my garden notebook.....and will copy it into next....I know what my memory's like :lol: :lol:
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well I never could remember so I wrote it at the back of my garden notebook.....and will copy it into next....I know what my memory's like :lol: :lol:
I have it written on a pice of paper tacked up inside the shed :lol: :lol:
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Sorry but whilst excel charts look pretty, I just can't understand why you would sit and spend time doing one. I know what went in where the previous year, lets be honest, you dont have to be Einstein to work out a three, four or five bed plan, the important bit is rotating to prevent problems and each bed gets a break from a particular veg (apart from the odd ones that don't need to rotate). Why make life more complicated. Get out more!
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Mine is in real writing, not excel :mellow:
an dit is very handy when you are plannignahead, especially when you share the polt with a lot of children and helpful teachers who are not always sure how to help...
........ or even just folk like me who like to see it written down :lol:
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Of course there are execeptions as our sunshine has pointed out where scribbling down is useful. I don't share my plot, its all mine, mine I tell thee.
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Tried taking the lappy down to the plot once to fill in a spread sheet.
Took me weeks to get the mud out of the keys.
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Aidy, assuming your comments include referring to my Nov 18th posting I explained why I find it a useful tool and also a convenient record of previous years' performance, and of course people are free to adopt the idea (one or two apparently did) or ignore it (this obviously includes you!)
As for getting out more, I will certainly do so when the weather improves! :wacko:
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Tried taking the lappy down to the plot once to fill in a spread sheet.
Took me weeks to get the mud out of the keys.
I thought you had a shed DD... with running water and a little hand basin?
Or try babywipes on those fingies :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Well, I've got a shed.
I'll be prepared this year now. I've a broadband dongle so I'll be able to search the internet as to whether I'm sowing at the right time.
Either that, or read the back of the packet.
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Well, I've got a shed.
I'll be prepared this year now. I've a broadband dongle so I'll be able to search the internet as to whether I'm sowing at the right time.
Either that, or read the back of the packet.
You radical, you :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Your not the first or the last to use software to plan/ record. I have been on allotments for over 15 years and I could probably count on one finger the amount of people that do such things and would garuantee most would laugh in your face if you said such a thing and then ask why. I must be lucky (given my past) in that I can remember how things grew the previous year, I am probably of the majority the don't weigh everything I grow before it goes into the freezer, each to their own I accept, and some will find it usefull in some way, but as I pointed out, what is the point? Is there any constructive meaning to keeping a record of how crops did the previous year or so, I would of thought if you do find it useful then you should also include weather patterns, temperature etc as this has a direct bearing on the crops we grow but I dont seem to see it on any of the spreadsheets I have seen! I shall carry on in my old tried and trusted ways without the need of becoming a slave to data input.
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Some people like it; that's good enough for me.
Each to their own....
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Aidy, it is a case of one size does not fit all, and everyone should be free to make their own choice about how they record, or ideed if they record, where they grow their veg every year, without feeling they are either right or wrong.
As I had made the previous post, it did feel a bit like your comments about being laughed at were addressed to me, but I have to hope they were not intended to make me feel uncomfortable :) :)
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i put all useful info, such as dates for sowing and harvest and what went where, and weather, into a little book. Shows successes and failures and what to try a diferent way for the next year.
It carries more information than my head ever could ::) At my age playing with pooters is not a strong point.....much easier to use pencil and paper ;)
But, each to his own :)
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But, each to his own :)
Exactly!
I can honestly say that updating my spreadsheet takes a maximum of 30 minutes per year (so not exactly enslaved by data-inputting!), and I always know where to find it!
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So back on thread. Crop rotation. Why have a spreadsheet for crop rotation? If I may use the two examples shown by JayG and Kristen, both the images they provide for us has no other information other than what went where. In my opinion, and I am sure others will agree you dont need a spreadsheet for that. I agree with MoS when everything is recorded, some constructive info can be gained, but again as weather patterns are not garuanteed or consistant in our fair land I would question the hours that are put into data input if infact it was worth it, but yes each to their own.
I grow pretty much the same basic crops each year with the odd new one, but I know where it all went and where it is all going, so therefore do not need a spreadsheet to tell me about crop rotation.
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And I have a brain like a sieve - no, a colander! I forget what and where and when - and lose the allotment notebook frequently. But never ever my bestest friend (OH and cat excepted), my laptop. So my laptop remembers for me ....
Each to their own - that is the joy of being a gardener! I think it is DD's phrase, "ask 10 gardeners and you get 11 different opinions" and 12 ways of working. ::) :D
Also back on thread - I have always treated leeks as onions (part of the same family) and put them in the same bit of the rotation. But some of the comment above imply that they are outside the pattern. Enlightenment, please??
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Also back on thread - I have always treated leeks as onions (part of the same family) and put them in the same bit of the rotation. But some of the comment above imply that they are outside the pattern. Enlightenment, please??
I also treat as onion, which go in my root bed with shallots etc.
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If I said they weren't alliums - it was a typo!
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Leeks an alium so i would and do plant them together.
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bl**dy typos
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Thats what the pompey accountant said to the VAT inspector! :D :D :D
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Thought so, misquoted again!
Whilst they are both alliums, Aidy, a leek is NOT an onion.
Here's the original, unedited post.
http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=51266.msg608562#msg608562
I stand exonerated.
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Just a quick question for the techies that use spread sheets etc etc zzzzzzz.
What happens if the computer says 'no'?
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bl**dy typos
Bl**dy Aidy.
Needs his eyes testing!
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Thats what the pompey accountant said to the VAT inspector! :D :D :D
What?
4-1?
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Thought so, misquoted again!
Whilst they are both alliums, Aidy, a leek is NOT an onion.
Here's the original, unedited post.
http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=51266.msg608562#msg608562
I stand exonerated.
Damn, miss read, sorry old boy just looked it up. Must get some new bins for me peeps. ;)
And amended my original answer.
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Thats what the pompey accountant said to the VAT inspector! :D :D :D
What?
4-1?
And a well deserved 4 too :D :D :D :D
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Just a quick question for the techies that use spread sheets etc etc zzzzzzz.
What happens if the computer says 'no'?
You get a new computer!
(As a responsible techie you do of course have a back-up of all your important stuff)
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ahhhh .... that reminds me ..... :(
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Also back on thread - I have always treated leeks as onions (part of the same family) and put them in the same bit of the rotation. But some of the comment above imply that they are outside the pattern. Enlightenment, please??
Oh sorry if I've confused anyone, with the suggestion of planting leeks after the new potatoes ::) It's just some thing I have always done, since an 'old boy' suggested it. it makes good use of the ground and I have had no problems (some would add...so far :lol: ) but agree it doesn't make sense with the fixed rotation plans!
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I put maincrop leeks in after new potatoes too :unsure:, but keep the earlies in the rotation. The leeks stand over the winter in what would otherwise be empty ground, and they are out in plenty of time for the second sowing of french beans :D :D
Werks fer me :D :D :D
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That is a very good point MumofStig, I would generaly follow with quick growing salad crops or let the chickweed take over as a green manure.
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I have plots that are square so it makes my life very easy to rotate.Each plot is approx 100sq mts so its divided into 4 and it just like a roundabout. Potato,brassicas,beans and other pulses and salads anywhere i like. I grow fruit on another plot with fixed cages around it and the other one i have my polytunnel ,flowers, tomatoes and corn, tho that moves around like my onions. I think crop rotation helps with good gardening practice and hygenie
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well this topic has certainly caused some debate should i or should i? crop rotation has always been my rule of thumb passed down to me when i was learning gardening a few years ago tut tut!!by my tutors and by looking at your replies it seems you agree i think there's a lot to be said for rotation of crops especially for brassicas when i took on an additional allotment plot
brassicas had been grown year on year on the same ground the result was the ground had inherited club root so i am limited to what i can actually grow there now i said it before and i say it again you need to put back in the ground what you take out feed the ground plenty of farmyard muck
grow a bit of green manure add a bit of lime i think there's some good sound advise in the replies posted
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"If I may use the two examples shown by JayG and Kristen, both the images they provide for us has no other information other than what went where. In my opinion, and I am sure others will agree you dont need a spreadsheet for that."
If I had been doing it for years I expect I could do without the planning and recording tools.
I could use Pencil and Paper - chances are that I would never find them again in my mess! or they would be covered in mud from the plot.
I have two Excel files:
First is a plan of what is planned to go where (updated with what actually went where). I record the number of plants and length of row. During the harvest I record whether its too much / too little / just enough, and then the following year I allocate more / less space.
This approach does give me a reasonable shout that the plants I raise (in pots) will have some ground to plant into! rather than running out of space mid-season, and that I grow "about the right amount for the kitchen".
I can't be doing with growing a whole row of lettuce that looks very nice, but most goes on the compost heap. I want a couple of lettuce a week, and that's all ...
I could do this with Pencil & Paper, but I'm skilled with Excel and it gives me the benefit of easily starting a new Trial & Error copy, and keeping all previous attempts; with paper I would have to start from scratch each time on a new sheet; I can also start with last years and just move things around.
I agree, for crop rotation I don't need that - I can just "imagine" that the Brassicas bit on the plan is where the Peas and Beans were last year. But I want to know row length and space available too.
If you don't need that sort of planning (because of years of experience, or that you are not needing detailed planning) that's fine of course. I think it is an absolute boon to newbies - saves them getting in a right muddle later in the season - "proper planning prevents piss poor performance" and all that ...
I don't take my laptop out to the veg plot :) but I do have a printout ... doesn't matter if it gets wet / muddy because I can print another easily.
My second spreadsheet is a list of all the vegetables that I plan to grow. These are divided into sections by crop rotation, and have nice little bars for each variety showing the sow/plant/harvest times month-by-month.
This is my "what to do next" tool.
I enter Sow/Plant/Harvest dates for all the seed packets I have (only a chore the first year, in following years they are mostly the same - change a few variety names, drop some that we didn't like, add some that we want to try)
I get two things from this:
1) A chronological list of What to do and When - e.g. what to sow in the middle of February
2) A record of what I sowed, when, how many plants I grew, and from that I can plan to do the same - or differently - next year
Again, for old-hands people this is stuff that they know from experience - they know what to do in February - but me: I need a list of what & when.
Here's an example:
Last year I grew some Sweetcorn in the greenhouse. It was a great success, but I only grew one block of (checks ...) 12 plants. I didn't do any successional sowing, and I wasn't brave enough to try them really early.
I planted them in a block because that's how you do sweet corn outside. Actually I hand pollinated them, there was no wind, so the pollen fell vertically onto the silks below. So I made a note that 3 or maybe 6 plants (3 across the width of the house) would do for a batch, and I should start 2-3 weeks earlier and finish 2 weeks later (by which time the outdoor sweet corn was ripening).
I could do all that with a Pencil and Paper, but, for me, a spreadsheet is a more useful tool. Sort a paper-list by the date-to-sow? That would be cool! my paper doesn't do that though ...
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You do sound incredibly well organised Kristen :D and this level of detail obviously serves you well too :) :)
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Kristen - I am one of the people that asked for a blank copy of your excel sheet. I am a real 'organiser' personality, and the kind of person that could literally make lists of the lists I make.
I have to say i found your spreadsheet easy to use, and it is currently helping me sort out what I need to sow when, as I am really new to this. Thank you very much for this Kristen.
No comments about me needing to get out more etc etc please. That is just the way I like doing it, so there 8)
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Awwww. Just think. If it snows again in April. You'll have another chance to redo your lists.
;)
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Awwww. Just think. If it snows again in April. You'll have another chance to redo your lists.
;)
Awww Geee thanks for that Pompey Spud :lol: :lol: :lol:
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No worries. Mother nature loves lists.
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So does Mrs D.
Do this, do that, this needs fixing, than needs glueing, car needs cleaning.................
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" You do sound incredibly well organised Kristen"
Mrs K would not agree :) but I am definitely a "detail" person ...
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Awwww. Just think. If it snows again in April. You'll have another chance to redo your lists.
;)
Imagine how delighted I'll be !!
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Bored?
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I think a lot of us are!
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Shall I send you my planning spreadsheet then DD? :D
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I tried rotating my crops ... gave it up in the third year as I as b*ggered if I could work out how to plant them upside down :(
I think a lot of us are!
:roll:
¥
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Shall I send you my planning spreadsheet then DD? :D
Can you help me with a problem?
Last year in cells AZ20 though to AZ39 I grew brassicas.
I had leeks and onions in B48 to B89. This bed is obviously orientated differently. The seedlings were of course raised in cells in the green house.
If I split the horzontal bed to make B48 to B67 and B68 to B89, this year can I drag the contents of AZ20 to AZ39 into B48 and B67, even though I'm dragging columns into rows.
Will it make any difference what colour the borders are and would it help if I make the shading lime?
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Not sure that adding lime to your shaded areas will help, depends on your margins but varying the colour of your borders will add interest to your cell .... which you'll hopefully be confined to for a while longer :roll:
¥
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Kristen please could I have a copy of your two spreadsheets.
I am also a bit handy with Excel and think this could be useful to me.
Thanks, andtiggertoo :)
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A pm might be neede here, andtiggertoo :)
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Yes please send PM with your Email address (best not to put that in a public message here otherwise all the Spam EMail Harvesters will put you on their lists forever :( )
(Here is the link to send me a PM [PM Link (http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=7666)])
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Or simply click the scroll icon underneath the username. That's what it's there for!
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Thanks, have pm'd Kristen. Am a bit of a novice with PM so thanks for pointing out how I do this :unsure: