Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Chatting => Chatting on the Plot => Topic started by: mrs bouquet on November 08, 2019, 20:01
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I have just been watching a news bulletin about the weather in Yorkshire, Derbyshire etc. I just cannot imagine watching that water and not being able to do anything. How terrible for those people. I hope you are not included. Dreadful. Mrs Bouquet
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In the Sheffield area, some were saved this time around by the flood defences built since the serious flooding in 2007.
Not everyone though, especially those homes and businesses who were hit again and haven't been able to get flooding insurance since then. :(
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Terrible what is happening oop North. Times like this I'm glad our local authority had the sense not to permit house building on the flood plains of the Severn.
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The unusual rain event in Sheffield back in 2007 was described as a "Once in 200 years, event" - Quite why they spent £20 million on flood defences is hard to see if they truly believed it. Anyway, good job they did as here we are, 12 years later, and another "Once in 200 years, event"
I really believe it's going to get a lot worse as time goes on. Drought & Flood, heatwaves & freezing, superstorms with extreme winds. Cutting CO2 levels should happen but probably won't and even if we stopped now the problems will take years to go away. So we need to do a lot more than become 'green' we need to invest in protecting ourselves from the consequences of our civilisation.
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Having been flooded three times in the past I know how it feels and it's not nice! :( We were fortunate in that it was our surface water pipe drained into a dyke that kept getting blocked, so we had to re-route the pipe under our garden and the nearby lane so it now goes into a different dyke that drains away from us. When it's due to a river overflowing its banks there's not a lot you can do except to help each other out. We always seem to get homes flooded around the yearly festival event and it makes me feel so sad for those who have been affected.
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Oh my God, the irony. Wasn't it Sheffield that destroyed thousands of healthy trees. As has nottingham. In its bid to make the planet healthier tens of thousands of trees have been destroyed to make way for trams. A much healthier way to live. Stop the greed. Work with nature not against it. Round me in derbyshire trees, hedges and fields ( natural soakaways) have all gone to be replaced with vast estates of thousands of houses joining 2 villages. The new roads all have wonderful names like, hare close, buzzard way kingfisher close. No longer will you see them. One of the new estates is called bluebell wood. It was at one time. Now suddenly there are more landslides in the world and dreadful floods. I don't understand why the surprise. You reap what you sow. Sorry I didn't mean this to be a rant but it touched a nerve. 😢
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Near my home town at a meeting about a new housing development that planned to build on the site of the old village pond they were told repeatedly by elderly locals "It will flood"!
The River Lavant flows underground there till there is enough rain to surface !
https://images.app.goo.gl/nH726Qj3KNRoSo27A
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The same thing happened in our village, the old farm house yard/pond which always flooded, had houses built on it about 30 years ago. So to help !, 3 willow trees were planted, they get so big that each year the residents have to pay to have them lopped etc. Guess what, the development is called "The Willows" - what imagination :D Mrs Bouquet
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I blame patios-uni did. I have a biological background and this is a quote from the lecturer.
Before patios rain had to percolate through trees, bushes, grass (all of which had a drink), through the roots and soil and it took time to reach the rivers. Not it patters onto patios and gravel with the waterproof lining, goes rush from one garden to the next and sits in the bottom person's garden. As a flood.
I took a bit out in the middle which I'll add for those who were not bored and wandered off, the river then had 2 surges (where it rose), once from rain running over the surface, because only so much will be soaked up or slowed down by running through or around things like grass. The second is several hours later and typically after the first surge. It's when the ground water reaches the river.
That was also told by my GCSE Geography teacher.
Really bad areas should consider planting willow, monstrously thirsty plants that help hold banks together (that bit also from uni lecturer). to support my assertion trees should be planted this is also from Uni ans school, the Mississippi one year had too little water in it and they realised one of the states up at the source of the river had planted loads of trees. So they took the trees out, the next year, the banks burst and record breaking flooding ensured. I believe it was in 1993.
More gardens here than not are lock block, gravel or slabbed over. I hate them as I look at them and think that could be raspberries, strawberries or currants. Something your children or grandchildren could eat. Where wildlife could be living. But your wasting it.
Soap box put away. Environment loving grumpy sod that I am, nerve also not so much touched as given a rather painful poking.
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It does go a bit beyond patios (and astroturf!) - a month's rain in a day is going to cause problems regardless. I agree with you about trees absorbing water. Swales on slopes would serve to slow flows too. Just improving the quality (more humus) and depth of topsoil will also help as it can absorb huge amounts of water.
The thing is that these control methods all cost money - we (as a society) either pay up-front or accept the cost of damage. Keep in mind that insurance companies are withdrawing cover for properties at high risk and putting up premiums for the rest.
Certainly 'hard engineering' has its place - flood defence barriers etc. but 'green engineering' has, IMHO, more of a role to play.
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It does go a bit beyond patios (and astroturf!) - a month's rain in a day is going to cause problems regardless. I agree with you about trees absorbing water. Swales on slopes would serve to slow flows too. Just improving the quality (more humus) and depth of topsoil will also help as it can absorb huge amounts of water.
The thing is that these control methods all cost money - we (as a society) either pay up-front or accept the cost of damage. Keep in mind that insurance companies are withdrawing cover for properties at high risk and putting up premiums for the rest.
Certainly 'hard engineering' has its place - flood defence barriers etc. but 'green engineering' has, IMHO, more of a role to play.
I agree with you on all points. Patio's exacerbate and there's only so much the moors can absorb.
Given how bad things are everything possible needs to be done to try mitigate this. Both green and hard engineering since there's not one solution. Money needs to be found and with green engineering they can ask for volunteers to help plant which would help take costs down. A lot of people would (I hope) be motivated to help plant to prevent future floods. I'd help and our house is at nor risk of flooding.
I remember being in a cafe a few years ago just before the second really bad Stonehaven floods and someone behind us wasn't able to get back to the town to rescue their stuff as public transport was cancelled. They were on the phone their mum to get her to rescue their stuff. Then they were on the phone trying to get insurance on their ground floor flat. They were right next to the river which was in spate and rising. It burst it's banks within the hour. I don't know if they got the cover, heartbreaking :(.
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Could it have been the instalation of 'flood defences' oop North that caused the flooding further South?
I hope evryone is O.K. after this traumatic event. Cheers, Tony.
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When I lived in 'big England' (Islander word), down the bottom of our road was two factories, both e mpty. They were then knocked down and a load of houses were built on the land. The drainage was insufficient to now cope and we came ho me one afternoon to find our road flooded and water lapping at our front door step. Further drains were fortunately installed and it never happened again but since I moved here to 'little England' both the ho mes I've had here are on raised land.
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Back in 2000, I was doing the daily drive to Canterbury, usually across several small rivers, streams really, near Smarden and thereabouts.
When we were all hit with rain in Kent that October 31st, I was on my way home in the dark avoiding all the puddles, but in a car, new to me (an automatic).
When I saw a huge flowing puddle by a little bridge near 'The Smarden Bell' pub (Mum will know it), I stopped, then saw some tail lights in the distance, so went for it, but on auto, not 1st gear.
Wrong thing to do. Bow wave over bonnet, stalled the car and water immediately came up to the top of the seats. Should have put it in first then burst through, but didn't know that.
Had to get out quick as the car was slowly moving sideways, but stopped thankfully. Got everything up on the roof, then implored a 4x4 driver to tow me out, which he did, with dribbling thanks from a soaked Growster! Car was a write-off, and smelt awful when I collected what was left of my stuff a week later!
Moral of the story? When it rains, nature likes to feed little streams which join into rivers, which turn into torrents, which break their banks, then cause Growsters mayhem, and all because of some vanishing tail-lights...
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Being 600 feet up on a hillside you'd think we were flood proof. Then we get a cloudburst and a sheet of water comes down the hill. In the cowshed, which is part buried at the back, the French drain is overwhelmed and water breaks through the tanking to jet 3 feet out of the back wall into the cowshed!
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"A French drain on a Welsh hillside"...
Call Dylan Thomas - sheer poetry!
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Wettest autumn for England and Wales since 2000 now.
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About 7 weeks ago, after torrential rain, our 12ft x 20ft cobbled yard was 18 ins under water. The water ended up seeping through the old brickwork and flooded 2 rooms downstairs. Further up the village a small holding was badly flooded and after phoning fire brigade they were told to take stuff upstairs. Hmm. Not easy with animals. 5 hours later and with dozens of houses ringing including us, an engine with crew arrived at my neighbours. 2 hero lads from the village were helping everybody and even fetched 2 pumps to help us. When my neighbour asked the crew to use their big bore pump they refused. It will contaminate it they said. Dumbfounded he was asked wtf are you doing here then. Another crew member told my neighbour it was a pr exercise. He has since lodged an official complaint. >:(
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About 7 weeks ago, after torrential rain, our 12ft x 20ft cobbled yard was 18 ins under water. The water ended up seeping through the old brickwork and flooded 2 rooms downstairs. Further up the village a small holding was badly flooded and after phoning fire brigade they were told to take stuff upstairs. Hmm. Not easy with animals. 5 hours later and with dozens of houses ringing including us, an engine with crew arrived at my neighbours. 2 hero lads from the village were helping everybody and even fetched 2 pumps to help us. When my neighbour asked the crew to use their big bore pump they refused. It will contaminate it they said. Dumbfounded he was asked wtf are you doing here then. Another crew member told my neighbour it was a pr exercise. He has since lodged an official complaint. >:(
What type of water?
Sorry, family member is in Fire Brigade and I can maybe clarify.
That could be the main pump for filling the tank on the appliance which squirts the water out onto fires.
Since it's the big one for fire fighting you don't want to use them when there's a chance of something in the water contaminating it. Because if anything happens it could damage the pump and engine. You could get oil or sewage in that and then it's contaminated which takes it off the run until it's cleaned, fixed or replaced. That will make your fine engine useless. You can't use it if you don't know what's in the water, you can take from rivers and sea but flood water is a different matter as anything could be in there. They have been sent out to be helpful, but have to remain ready to go to an emergency where life is at risk so they can't do as much as they'd like.
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I wrote up some thoughts about this flooding and what we can do to help. Floods – the answers in the land (https://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-diary/6694/floods-answers-land/)
Strikes me that the fire brigades could be equipped with specific flood pumps but I suppose we're back to money. Thing is the sums involved are very small when you look at the cost of floods. According to HMG we spend £0.8 billion on flood prevention but flooding costs £1.4 billion on top of that. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Another thought - perhaps the fire brigade could pay for flood pumps and assistance via a charge to the insurance companies. After all, it saves them money.
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I wrote up some thoughts about this flooding and what we can do to help. Floods – the answers in the land (https://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-diary/6694/floods-answers-land/)
Strikes me that the fire brigades could be equipped with specific flood pumps but I suppose we're back to money. Thing is the sums involved are very small when you look at the cost of floods. According to HMG we spend £0.8 billion on flood prevention but flooding costs £1.4 billion on top of that. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Another thought - perhaps the fire brigade could pay for flood pumps and assistance via a charge to the insurance companies. After all, it saves them money.
That is a rather small amount to spend on flooding.
The SFRS (Scottish Fire and Rescue Service) has them, 6 different types, but the bosses see it officially as not their responsibility. They are there to rescue people and it's an additional service they can provide. So if there's no danger to life it's not priority. Local remit will vary. Up here they could charge you because it's an additional service that they can do, but in flooding their reluctant to do so. Since one of the methods requires them to drain the tank on the engine to pump water out, they'd be putting lives at risk because they might not be able to refill the tank. Since the local mains water sources including hydrants could be contaminated because they often burst and things get in-breaking the engine. Had there been danger to life then sod the machine, but only if there's danger to life.
Also in flooding travel is hampered, especially when your average engine has a 7 and 1/2 tons weight load capacity (12- 15 tons total average) so they need to be gone in an instant. They don't have the time take the engine out of circulation to pack up and it would delay turn out. Putting other lives at risk in a large scale ongoing incident where danger to life can occur any time. Were it a quiet day they'd probably be happy to help out, but in a large scale emergency they can't afford to do it.
The council should have to set up a service to drain houses, they should have access to water pumps. Gully suckers, the drain cleaning machines are designed to deal with manky water. There are companies who will do it, any that dig holes or plant hire companies. But locating one in a flood and getting there first.
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Interesting to get the fire service viewpoint and reasons - which aren't obvious to outsiders.
To me it's obviously going to get worse in coming years and money spent on flood defence schemes (esp. green engineering) is an investment that will cover its costs. Of course there isn't a bottomless purse but maybe we should rethink our priorities.
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Interesting to get the fire service viewpoint and reasons - which aren't obvious to outsiders.
To me it's obviously going to get worse in coming years and money spent on flood defence schemes (esp. green engineering) is an investment that will cover its costs. Of course there isn't a bottomless purse but maybe we should rethink our priorities.
You are totally spot in.
When I asked about this I was told Moral pressure is one of the things first taught to you when you join, people may be very rightly upset. You will feel for them and be also upset. But you have to remember what your point of your job is-to save lives and they need to be ready to go to save those lives. Whenever NOW might be. They will totally feel for the upset home owner, but they have to keep the engine in a fit state to operate and get to emergencies asap.
If they found out who said it was a PR stunt the bosses will be fuming as that was unprofessional and they have upset the home owner unnecessarily. I think they could and should have said "We'd love to help, but we have to be ready to go in an instant to a life threatening emergency. This dirty water could break the pump or engine and stop us from being able to work and save lives. With the floods hindering travel we'll have hard going as it is".
Himalayan balsam is getting the blame for flooding in areas because it has a very shallow root system, is out competing native waterway bank plants. The shallow root system means it doesn't hold the banks together well causing subsidence and other problems. Especially on canal banks. Their trying a killer rust in the Norfolk broads to try kill it.
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Goosegirl keep quiet about where your surface water is directed to as legal changes have meant this is no longer permitted.
Lincolnshire was water logged in early October and rivers have overspilled, causing the already bad road surface to disintergrate!!!
One river has created a lake around the farmhouse as it has breached....farm land so environmental agency leaves it.
Most notable is that over winter crops like wheat has not been planted.
Local fields still resemble lakes.
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Hello does any one know why the Dutch river in Goole was low water when the River Don was over topping answer the out let from the other rivers was blocked so had no where to go a simple solution is to dredge the rivers 10 feet deep there's no way will the rivers over top why does the television insist that rivers have burst their banks if the burst there would be more devastation jezza
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dredging increases the amount of silt deposited. catch 22
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dredging increases the amount of silt deposited. catch 22
That's why it was always done regularly, doesn't seem to be done much at all nowadays - so the question is who should be doing it? Planting more trees and water catchment plans are for the long term, but for now perhaps dredging is the right answer.
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different agencies do it, some are environment agency,some are councils, some are landowners.
But rainwater run off has also caused problems.
Ditching wasn't possible here due to the wet weather and ditching can only be done outside bird breeding season. Some farmers have now done some, hence muddy roads but rained all day again