Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Growing => Growing FAQs and other Information => Topic started by: John on August 24, 2006, 01:28

Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on August 24, 2006, 01:28
Hi everyone,

It would be really helpful if you could answer my little poll - I know we're probably not a statistically representative sample or what have you - but I'd like to get a feel for how people think.

Be honest - your answers are anonymous :)

Thanks

John
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Heather_S on August 24, 2006, 10:11
I think I voted the right way... I don't use artifical fertiliser but I occasionally use weedkiller on the bad stuff (bindweed coming from the other plot  :roll: ) and poof the brassicas with derris dust to try to beat up the flea beetles, though I think the little black shiny ******s are just laughing at me while munching on their veggie delights.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: milkman on August 24, 2006, 10:56
I've successfully managed to vote I think - as many of you have probably guessed by now I put myself in the true organic category - not so much as a slug pellet on my plots or garden, and I don't use any of the so-called "safe" products such as bordeaux mixture or derris or nematodes.  I haven't even got round to sprinkling blood fish and bone on my plot.  

For me, being organic is not so much about not using this artificial fertiliser or pesticide or that - it's all about taking care of the soil and encouraging beneficial wildlife, which in turn will take care of your plants and reward you with great fruit and veg.  I feel that reaching for the spray can at the first sign of trouble to achieve a quick fix (even if it is with a "safe" chemical) rather goes against this philosophy.  I always get some failures, which are generally the result of my lack of care and attention, but they are always far outweighed by my successes.  

Now for the confessional:
My "stuff ups" have been to dust some ant powder round a tomato plant in the greenhouse which was being decimated by ants this year before I had a chance to realise what I was doing, and to paint my shed a couple of years ago with some toxic wood preservative or other - this year I'm going to try vegetable oil...oh and I did use pressure treated wood for the bases of my greenhouses...oh and I haven't got round to sourcing a peat-free compost... - so still plenty of challenges to be met on the organic gardening learning curve!
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on August 24, 2006, 12:30
Comments always welcome, milkman.

I'm hoping we'll get lots of votes on this -  I know it could have been drafted better but hey, I'm not a market researcher.

As some may know, I'm a member of the National Vegetable Society and have felt that the organic trend is under represented so something more concrete than 'I feel' will carry weight. Having said that - I'm not totally organic myself.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: shaun on August 24, 2006, 22:35
i dont think there is a major problem with fertiliser.i use kemira growhow http://www.kemira-growhow.com/uk .you can buy it direct from the factory for £5.50 for a 50kg bag. but i dont like and will nether use weedkiller or pesticides .i would rather loose the crops and put up with a few weeds. slug pellets are another touchy subject are they classed as pesticide ?
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on August 24, 2006, 23:25
I think there is a difference between slug pellets and systemic insecticide - I don't eat the pellets. Then again, I use wildlife friendly pellets.
Title: 100% organic or what
Post by: Oliver on August 25, 2006, 09:19
Quote from: "john"
I think there is a difference between slug pellets and systemic insecticide - I don't eat the pellets. Then again, I use wildlife friendly pellets.

She uses wildlife friendly pellets if absolutely necessary (on the bush tomatoes, for example), and if the blackfly get out of hand on the broad beans she uses derris.
Nothing else. Certainly never weedkillers.
Nutrition for the soil: compost, manure (cattle and horse), chicken pellets. Sometimes blood, fish and bone.
In the greenhouse/poly - comfrey tea
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: stompy on August 25, 2006, 10:04
Oops, I use glyphosate as a one off on specific areas, this is to kill the masses of weeds that i'v got.

It works realy well, kills everything apart from the odd pirenial, then i just dig them out.

We have masses of couch grass, i tryed to dig it out but it just kept coming back, the old hands said i was fighting a loosing battle and to use glyphosate, they said that was the only way to beat it, otherwise i would end up pulling my hair out and not the grass.

Several people had tryed to beat it without weed killer, but had apparently all given their plots up in the end.

All i'm trying to say is, i feel ok using it at first but only for the first couple of seasons, to break the back of the pirenial weeds, the anuals are not a problem.

Then it's organic all the way.

A few seasons and the ground will be pure once again.


.
Title: Couch and bindweed
Post by: Oliver on August 25, 2006, 11:24
Quote from: "stompy"
A few seasons and the ground will be pure once again.
.

Sorry to be a party-pooper, Stompy, but couch and bindweed are the devils own to get rid of - all you can do is keep at it and it becomes progressively easier.

They have been working their plots for nearly 35 years now. They just kept at it and rid the plot of couch in the end (probably took 5 years), but if they turn their back for too long the couch creeps back from neighbouring plots at a rate of knots! Bindweed is still there, but not a problem. Ground elder comes back on the paths from time to time. Colt's foot has been eradicated completely.

In the years when neighbouring plots get overgrown and the Council does not strim them, then the grass seed and dandelions sprout up everywhere. it's a never ending battle! But not one to give up on - hoeing is very relaxing (for a cat to watch  :lol: ).
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Beanzie on August 25, 2006, 20:19
Been organic 20+ years now. Only real recent problems have been mildew on onions.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Judymac on August 25, 2006, 21:17
Sorry all organic for the last two years...

Make you own fertiliser from nettles and comfrey...my tomatoes are HUGE this year, gotta be good  :D

Pull all my weeds by hand, even the chickweed and couch grass are beginning to give up!

I do use soapy water for aphids, beer traps for slugs, hand picking for colorado beetle and caterpillars, plus of course the perennial swearing at flea beetles  :wink:

Bordeaux mix is allowed under organic regs, but I don't use it... yarrow leaves added to my home-made (very smelly) fertiliser generally keep mould clear.

Remember jam traps for the wasps so they don't scoff your toms...caught one at it today and the tomatoe was huge :evil:

Anyway must stop rambling on  :shock:

Judy
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on August 25, 2006, 22:00
Quote from: "Judymac"

Remember jam traps for the wasps so they don't scoff your toms...caught one at it today and the tomatoe was huge :evil:
Judy


So that's it  - I've been trying to work out what was nibbling my toms!

AS for this poll, interesting how it's shaping up, I've got great respect for anyone who can grow 100% organic but I wonder if we throw the baby out with the bathwater sometimes.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Judymac on August 26, 2006, 17:41
Well I think it's harder to be organic on an allotment site, after all everyone else could be spraying right next to you. I have an advantage living half way up a mountain, there are less insects...well so I'm told  :roll:  I just think they're bigger, survival of the fittest etc  :wink:

I'm a pottie not a lottie (maybe I am going slightly mad!?  :lol: ), and rent a piece of land opposite the house for my potager, 10 Euro a year for life, well that's got to be a good bargain!

When people say organic gardening is less time consuming than chemicals, I always have a good laugh, seems to me that I spend twice the time in my potager that I used to spend on my allotment back in the UK. This may have something to do with the brewing shed being out there...nah!  :wink:

Each to their own  :D

Judy
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: jaycee on September 09, 2006, 09:15
Quote from: "john"
I think there is a difference between slug pellets and systemic insecticide - I don't eat the pellets. Then again, I use wildlife friendly pellets.

Some years ago we had a lovely family of hedgehogs (one adult and 4 very small ones). We used to watch them come out and play during the day.
Then disaster I put down "friendly" slug pellets. You know the ones that claim not to harm wildlife. Imagine our horror when a couple of days later all our babies were dead.
Not used them since outside. Occasianally in the greenhouse under a cover to kill the odd slug that seems to get in there no matter what.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 09, 2006, 09:57
That's worrying, jaycee. It's not just being 'green' to try and avoid killing the predators - it's self interest.

Besides, I don't like killing anything - even feel a shudder chopping through a slug.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Hazel on September 14, 2006, 08:35
I do try to be organic wherever possible,I think we need to try and get our plant back.as a child I remember all my dad's veggies had a Taste to them I think is lost now adays. Hazel
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Treehugger on September 14, 2006, 09:52
Hi everyone,

Interesting results!

My allotment site in Ludlow is 100% organic so no choice there. Obviously a Good Thing. In my garden however I do use the occasional dose of artificial tomato fertiliser and I have to say the toms grown at home are ever-so-slightly tastier than the same variety on the allotment...oops.

I know that isn't the point of course.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: daveylamp on September 14, 2006, 10:15
cant seem to get the voting slip to work so i will vote this way vote=  
       I avoid using herbicides and pesticides unless I have to.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: pete on September 14, 2006, 21:27
To be honest, I use herbicides when I have to. I have had two badly overgrown allotments and it was one of the way to tame the beast as I am still in full time work and juggling having day release and a pregnant wife (Due monday.)

Used appropriately they can help. Truely organic - i would say imho is if you are experienced or if you walk into an established site, where you take over from someone else, alot of the hard graft is already done. If you take a plot on 6 foot high in brambles, where is the organic principle going to get you besides depressed. Sorry been there thought organic, no dig etc got dishartened, chopped down brambles and sprayed the lot. Now that was satisfying and it blooming worked. Used one of those sprays that goes into the roots (Allegedly.)

Sorry long day and letting off steam.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 14, 2006, 22:02
I'm finding the results really interesting - I think we can say the vast majority tend towards organic methods but a sizeable minority are  100% organic.

Myself I'm in the middle and I'd rather see a plot spray cleared and working than demoralised idealists giving it up as a bad job.  

Sorry you had a bad day, Pete - I know how you feel having spent the afternoon at the hospital. Nothing too serious, Val broke her ankle ages ago and it needed plastering. Now I keep telling her to hop to it!
Title: Organic ?.
Post by: alanb on September 15, 2006, 08:54
I do try to be organic,Seaweed from the beach and rotted farmyard compost. However I do resort to slug pellets as they are a serious peston my plot.
 "wildlife friendly" pellets,try telling the Slugs that!!

Alan B.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: silver8 on September 15, 2006, 09:28
Very encouraging poll.
A bit off topic but a couple of questions about the dreaded slug. I have a number of crops overwintering. Do slugs become inactive in the winter or will I still need to protect these (likewise with caterpillars). Secondly, are the slug pellets that contain ferrramol,and which claim not to do any damage to other wildlife, organic. I seen some references that they are but the product ive seen (Advanced Slug Killer) does not claim to be.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 15, 2006, 09:37
My understanding of slugs is that they go quiet in the winter - at least they aren't such a problem. Caterpillars aren't a problem in winter.

On the pellets - the problem with the conventional ones is that they are poisonous to wildlife although the colour is supposed to put off birds etc and they have something that stops them being tasty to widlife.  I think the dead / dying slug becomes poisonous though.

The wildlife friendly types are not as effective, IMHO, but at least you do not kill off your helpful friends in the garden.  You can buy those from the organic catalogue so I think they count as organic.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: silver8 on September 15, 2006, 10:17
Many thanls John.

Out of interest, a naive question to the non organic gardeners. My leeks are looking in a bad way and look like they have been attacked by onion fly. With so many pests around from slugs to carrot fly and catterpillers how do you protect all your crops. Is there one product you use or different ones for different pests. Doesnot this work out expensive.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 15, 2006, 12:50
There was a massive change to the legislation whereby manufacturers were required to re-test their pesticides and set usuage levels etc for specific crops.

All very good but the costs involved resulted in many products coming off the market - not because they were unsafe but because it was too expensive to test them

So the products avaiable to the amateur have been reduced drastically and often things are being used inappropriately.

Although I am not a strict organic grower, I avoid the use of pesticides and just accept a level of damage to the crops. My theory is that a bit of visible damage is better than invisible pesticide contamination residues.

A good healthy soil will produce tough crops that resist  or recover from most pests. Too much nitrogen is really bad for encouraging sappy growth that pests love, by the way.

Fleece is a good barrier for many things and I believe Derris is approved as an insecticide even under organic standards.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: shaun on September 15, 2006, 17:07
i have been given some bio clubroot control ,it has been took of the market for some reason unknown .has any one used it?
you mix the sachet with a pint of water and dip your young plant roots in the solution and water the remainder into the soil around the plant.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 16, 2006, 00:36
I know a  few people who stocked up before things were taken off the shelf.  As I said - removed from sale as the cost of the new tests made it uneconomical to sell it.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: pete on September 17, 2006, 22:15
"Sorry you had a bad day, Pete " - Thanks John. I had a day of dealing with flooding. I work for my local authority dealing with drainage and it was a day from hell.

Hey a lovely weekend though. Spent most of it in families gardens. Just waiting for the baby to come now. :D  :D
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: trapper on September 21, 2006, 00:07
organics or what ,the vote failed but I do ocasionally resort to . GLYPHOSATE, JUST GIVES ME THE EDGE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG!!! :wink:
Title: Organic or not?
Post by: Alec Powell on September 28, 2006, 09:57
Extremely difficult one for me.

a)Predators? (i.e. anthing that wants to eat MY vegetables)
BLAST THEM with whatever is available :!:)

b)Soil additives?
Cursed nitrates? :!:  Being an angler I have seen in my lifetime what they have done to our precious rivers :!: No way :!:  :!:
If your soil needs enriching COMPOST COMPOST COMPOST COMPOST :!:

And just when you think you are 100% organic....Joe Bloggs on the next allotment sprays his crops with something that you have NO control over :!:
There is no such thing as a 100% organic allotment gardener
Oh, and by the way,just up the road from me is one of the biggest  genetic farms in the country so does it all make much difference to me?
I'm still smiling though :D
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on September 28, 2006, 10:33
Sorry if the poll was tricky - I am just trying to get a feel for how people feel if that makes sense.
Ideal would have been to get a survey expert to draft the questions, but I didn't have a few grand spare :)

What I think we can say is that the majority of those who voted are on the green side of the scale.

Nitrogen run off into the water is one of the by products of chemical farming rather than the relatively small amounts even the most chemical gardener would use.  Having said that, good compost and manure has to be better for plants than pure NPK fertilisers because of all the trace elements if nothing else.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Aidy on October 03, 2006, 16:21
To be honest I get very confused now on what is organic and what is not. I only use rotted horse muck, I dont use pellets etc as we have a healthy brood of Blackbirds/thrushes, I always try and source "organic seed", but does using petrol driven strimmers rotovators mean I am not??? The shed gets painted with a enviromentally safe wood paint, is this organic? The only thing I know for certain is where my food comes from and that keeps me happy and my family and I suppose that is all that counts.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Flying Cyril on October 30, 2006, 21:56
G'day.
I have been mainly organic so far. Our site has thousands of slow worms on it so I will not be using slug pellets, I'd rather lose some veggies to the slugs than kill the slow worms. There are also frogs about, so I'll be making a pond to encourage them onto my plot. I had to spray my cabbages due to a major infestation of whitefly, but now I know to plant marigold among them (whitefly dont like 'em). Also I'll plant some lovage and that other herb that I cant remember at the moment (fennel??) that attracts a paracitic wasp that preys on whitefly. They inject an egg into the whitefly and when it hatches the grub eats it. Must be damned small wasps. I'll also be making insect nests out of old bamboo to encourage more ladybirds and lacewings to eat greenfly/blackfly. My broadbeans were black with blackfly. I just left them, not wanting to use chemicals, and one day they started to turn green. I went up to them to investigate and saw hundreds of ladybirds and their larvae munching away on the blackfly. Watching this natural pest control at work is as pleasing to me as growing the veg itself. Even earwigs have a use, they eat them little slugs that bore holes in the spuds (so I've read in one of me books).
Yes, I intend to be 100% organic, it's the way ahead, and it's cheaper (saves the beer tokens).
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Jake on October 30, 2006, 22:31
Quote from: "Flying Cyril"
I had to spray my cabbages due to a major infestation of whitefly, but now I know to plant marigold among them (whitefly dont like 'em). Also I'll plant some lovage and that other herb that I cant remember at the moment (fennel??) that attracts a paracitic wasp that preys on whitefly. They inject an egg into the whitefly and when it hatches the grub eats it.


good to know, thanks.

Quote
My broadbeans were black with blackfly. I just left them, not wanting to use chemicals, and one day they started to turn green. I went up to them to investigate and saw hundreds of ladybirds and their larvae munching away on the blackfly.


Mine were the same! I didn't see the ladybirds actually on them but they were covered in blackfly at one point. My sprouts were the same but I was away for a while and now they are doing fantastic :) I mean really fantastic,some are ready to eat now!
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Flying Cyril on November 05, 2006, 21:03
Quote from: "Judymac"
Sorry all organic for the last two years...

hand picking for colorado beetle and caterpillars, Judy


Dont they have to be reported, by law ?? In an insect book I have from the 1970's it say's that they have to be reported to the authorities but that is over 30 years ago.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: richyrich7 on November 30, 2006, 21:02
Quote from: "Flying Cyril"
Quote from: "Judymac"
Sorry all organic for the last two years...

hand picking for colorado beetle and caterpillars, Judy


Dont they have to be reported, by law ?? In an insect book I have from the 1970's it say's that they have to be reported to the authorities but that is over 30 years ago.


Yep quite right, you do have to report them, Evil little things.
Defra link for all those interested DEFRA and the beetle (http://www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pestnote/colpub.htm)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on November 30, 2006, 22:37
Judymac is in France where they have lots of colarado beetles -  we, in the UK, still don't have the pleasure of their company, thank goodness.
Title: We do try
Post by: denbo73 on January 16, 2007, 19:08
Me and my mate obey touch wood, we take it in turns with the greased beer mat to catch the flea beetles and stab the slugs by torch lite, and for the rest ,caterpilows (excuse my spelling) and flyes we go on squashing duty,but we have made a spray out of boiling garlic, rosmary, pepper corns, and a touch of washing up liquid, and that seems to keep the * off, and still seem to keep a healthy amount of ladybirds and lace wings.
we have also put a lot of insect homes arond our plot.
But never the less we'v only had our plot since last june :roll: , so we may have been lucky.
As for the weeds its the same hard work to keep on top.
Two or three folk down our site are mad for glyphosphate and say its organic lol. Iv told em go on the internet and have a good read.
Title: Organic or not?? Organic.
Post by: Pure Scotsman on January 21, 2007, 22:58
We just started out this weekend. First allotment plot ever.
It's very difficult to be sure of the history of a plot although I am assured that the previous tenant "tried to always be organic".
Our plan is to be as organic as possible, even down to buying organic seeds and seed potatoes.
Fortunately our allotment association supplies certified organic compost amongst other things and as a rule the whole site "tries" to be organic.

The big question I would have for everyone is..... can I say my produce is organic? I mean we have no idea what chemicals are in the water table from other allotment holders or even local gardens.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: hotterotter on January 29, 2007, 13:57
Hi I'm new here, I've got an allotment which I took on late last summer. So far so good but since I missed most summer sowings I'm concentrating on an early start for next year. I've grown vegetables before but always on a very small scale my plans now are to grow a range of veg on my outdoor cultivated space (just finished digging it) which is about 17 poles, and a separate fruit area. I've got a greenhouse which belonged to the previous occupier (but I helped him aquire it 2 years ago) I've not measured it but its fairly big 6x12 at least. I've also built a 10x10 enclosure which I sown with rye last autumn from ash coppice poles and a small chicken house made from floorboards from a derelict building. Early march I plan to get 3 pullets to keep here for eggs. I'm going to be organic and not use peat or anything nasty like that.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: yummy on February 04, 2007, 18:35
I wanted to be organic. Then I was told I'd not clear my plot without round up. Then other people told me that was rubbish advice. I read up about round up and opted for the organic approach. I talked round my fellow plot owners and we started to dig this morning. The allotment committe popped by for a chat and talked them back round to the round up way. I was out voted 2:1. I am not organic after all.

I'm not having anything else nasty put on it and no more round up either. :evil:
Title: Doing the best we can
Post by: vron on February 25, 2007, 16:40
Hi everybody, we had our allotment in March 06, we shared half a plot first and then took it totally over in Sept 06, as it didn't work out.

The plot was so over grown that you could not see the plum trees for over grown fruit bushes etc.

Derek was recovering from a hip-replacement (Jan 06) but with the dedication of our son and his father-in-law, who has the plot next door, between them all it was cleared and rotovated ready for us to use in March 06.

We don't know whether any weed-killer was applied prior to the rotovation, if it was then it will never be applied again.

On our half we have used nothing chemical not even slug bait (we used garlic granules around the brassicas etc).  But we did use growmore, as at that time we did not have a compost heap.

The other half had slug bait applied and was then totally neglected so the slugs had a feast, hence us taking back that half.

We have totally hand dug the whole plot from Dec 06 - Feb 07, weeding as we go.

And we hope to proceed the same way this year, being as natural as possible, though we will still use up our supply of growmore and also use chicken pelleted manure.  We now have 3 compost heaps

We were always being told that we will not do any good unless we used slug bait etc, but we chose to go our own way.

Asking advice where we can and using it if it does not conflict with what we are already doing.

We had good success with what we grew on the half we started with, and gave quite a bit away as there are only the 2 of us.

An allotment has great community spirit, though sometimes you can spend more time chatting  :lol: than working.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on February 25, 2007, 16:48
You can get organic slug pellets although someone on here said they weren't wildlife safe they are supposed to be.

Using growmore means you're not organic in the strict sense of the word, but personally I think moderation in all things - even being organic.  

A really interesting comment from Medwyn Williams (chair of the National Vegetable Society) was on the lines of "To win the show you need to use systemic pesticides, but obviously don't use them on things you intend to eat"
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Muppet on March 06, 2007, 09:13
I'm pathetically organic... :oops: , as in I wander about removing worms whilst digging, and um... er.... helping snails get outta the way...  :roll:  :lol:

I've been organic for about 5 years? And It seems to have finally levelled off where there's enough wildlife to eat each other!  :shock:  :D

Thrushes are sorting out snails ( I can't look...!) Gawd knows what's eaten the whitefly and to be honest, even when I had loads of whitefly, didn't stop the veg growing and still tasted ok.... wonderful, in fact!

As to caterpillars, well, I lie to the kids about that, not sure how long they'll fall for it mind you.. I take them to the plot and say "These caterpillars have bout 10 mins to live before I go around squishing them.." :evil:  :lol:  And the kids race around in a mad panic collecting them and "freeing" them into the hedgerow.... 8)  :wink:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: andyh4 on March 06, 2007, 11:04
Quote from: "Muppet"
As to caterpillars, well, I lie to the kids about that, not sure how long they'll fall for it mind you.. I take them to the plot and say "These caterpillars have bout 10 mins to live before I go around squishing them.." :evil:  :lol:  And the kids race around in a mad panic collecting them and "freeing" them into the hedgerow.... 8)  :wink:


Most caterpillers are species specific regarding their food, so taking a cabbage white of the brassicas and leaving it in the hawthorn means either:
1.  It's going to find its way back to the brassicas                 or
2.  It dies slowly through starvation.

Better not tell the kids they have been responsible for the insect equivalent of genocide.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: corndolly on April 10, 2007, 13:13
We've used organic methods for over 30 years, mind we do have plenty of helpers for the hoeing/ weeding. Most of the perennials have gone now and any that dare to show their nasty heads are quickly forked out .

Am thinking of using a weedkiller on the patio and paving but not sure if it will leach into the soil .

I think if the plants are healthy they withstand attacks from insects, encourage ladybirds they are wonderful.

Pick out the tops of broad beans stops blackfly attack.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2007, 17:15
Trouble is what ladybirds?
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: The Dalai Farmer on April 15, 2007, 11:33
I live in the middle of arable farming country and they regularly spread TONS (literally!!" over the fields on all sides of me.  This drives all the slugs into my veggie patch (and flower gardens).  

Compared to their huge quanitites my garden makes no difference, so I use the pellets to get anything that escapes theirs and put out proper insectivore food for the birds to discourage them from picking up the dead slugs.

I'm pretty green all round, tho' - we are on a self-sufficiency crusade!  I've got a blog, if anyone is interested?
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Will Wilkinson on May 09, 2007, 22:21
Other than seed buying I'm 100% organic (can't get all the varieties I want as organic seeds) - It's a bit more work to begin with but once a good number of predators have been attracted and most of the perennial weeds eradicated it's just as easy as chemical methods IMO. The main pest on our plots are slugs - I'm going to give nematodes a try this year, they should really help with the spuds as they'll get the ones that stay underground and are missed by the pellets most of the other growers use.

I've found that I get better soil quality by having an organic system - plenty of muck goes in and the helpful beasties do the rest. We're on fairly heavy clay and the completely organic plots certainly seem to have the best soil.

Will
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: The Dalai Farmer on May 14, 2007, 11:26
I never, ever thought I would say this, but I'm really lucky because I live within 200 yards of a pig farm!!

Well rotted, it's perfect!  Mixed with a bit of straw it's like Christmas pudding for the ground!
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on May 17, 2007, 00:33
Quote from: "Will Wilkinson"


I've found that I get better soil quality by having an organic system - plenty of muck goes in and the helpful beasties do the rest. We're on fairly heavy clay and the completely organic plots certainly seem to have the best soil.

Will

That doesn't surprise me - proper organic gardeners know they need to work on the soil quality rather than scatter growmore.

In fact, come to think of it, all gardeners should know that :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: flowerlady on June 15, 2007, 19:02
Well I have just voted ( have to own up to not being exclusively organic in the past )   :oops:

I'm on my own with the plot this year and if I do not manage to tame the wilderness ... so be it ... I like wild life ...   :lol:

As I am also passionate about companion planting, and as Henry says turnips will kill couch, I will continue to seek out such wonderful remdies  :tongue2:   I also like the tall Tagetes Minuta that does dislike ground elder  :tongue2:

Are there any more fabulous plants that you know of ?????  Do tell ....
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: weeeed on July 17, 2007, 17:45
I didn't have a problem finding the poll, I just hope I'm not going to be taken out and shot for being honest!  I actually haven't been able to be organic or not since I've had my plot 'cos of the rain, which is still falling in Hull, but now accompanied by lots of thunder and lightening! What I need is a witch doctor to do the reverse of the rain dance! Soz for the rant. :oops:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: brucesgirl on July 17, 2007, 19:23
Only just found this poll, I try my best and am really pleased the Growing Success slug pellets are now organic. Can't bear the thought of eating chemicals.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on July 18, 2007, 09:35
There's no need to worry - I'm not organic myself!

I think the poll supports my theory that many growers are looking to control the inputs on their food. So they may use glyphosate (not organic) but won't use a pesticide for example.

Personally, I think organic growing overall is very sensible but there are times when a bit of help is good. If you're losing a crop and a quick boost of nitrogen will save it, then why not?
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: smithyveg on August 10, 2007, 13:29
Sorry couldn't vote on this.....there didn't appear to be a category marked:

'Organic gardening is cobblers and means veg that are covered with slug bites and caterpillar dodo' LOL
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: WG. on August 10, 2007, 14:06
Quote from: "smithyveg"
'Organic gardening is cobblers and means veg that are covered with slug bites and caterpillar dodo'
 :roll:  :roll: These look fine to me ...
(http://www.4starscotland.com/images/porcelain.jpg)
The golf ball is not organically grown.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: smithyveg on August 10, 2007, 14:35
Agreed.....but garlic are pretty trouble free LOL

I was thinking more of lettuces, beans, leeks, etc

But then I do grow for the show bench and things do have to be pristine.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: WG. on August 10, 2007, 14:59
Quote from: "smithyveg"
Agreed.....but garlic are pretty trouble free LOL

I was thinking more of lettuces, beans, leeks, etc

But then I do grow for the show bench and things do have to be pristine.

Garlic trouble-free? - yes if you discount rust, white rot, botrytis, etc

lettuces, beans, leeks, etc? - I'd need to ask my 4star hotelier customers why they keep buying my organic ones then

grow for the show bench - Your choice. I grow for flavour & happen to choose to do it organically.  :wink:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Aunt Sally on August 10, 2007, 15:49
Boys Aunty will have no squabbeling here.  There is room in this world and forum for every one's opinions.

Chemicals - nasty evil things designed to poison us all  :!:

Organic - a load of cobblers, the plants don't know the difference between comfrey tea and growmore  :!:

Now that's a balanced opinion  :lol:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: smithyveg on August 10, 2007, 16:00
I quite agree....there's plenty of room on this great big onion for all of us whatever our creed, religion, colour or opinion.

Live and let live I say.


Apart from Liverpool fans who should be shot of course.
Oh....and Arsenal fans....not too keen on them either.

Errr.....and the French....goes without saying.......i reckon we could do without the Germans too.

And chavs obviously.

But apart from them.......everyone has a useful part to play.

Oh forgot about the Italians......
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: WG. on August 10, 2007, 16:07
My mother was a French Liverpool fan & my father founded the Rome branch of the Arsenal supporters club.  Both gardened organically & went to Germany on their holidays.   And, tell me, do you have any kind of a problem with that Mr Smith ???  :wink:  :wink:

I have a serious question for you though.  Does taste play any part in the judging of veg / fruit at shows?

In truth, my mother did show veg & did not grow organically.  :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: smithyveg on August 10, 2007, 16:13
Blimey...you really have had a terrible start in life haven't you ? LOL

Seriously though......taste plays no part in the judging of veg at British shows....it's more about the spectacle. However, I can assure you that all show veg tastes superb. Quality is paramount in anything that is entered onto the showbench. The National Vegetable Society has a motto.....'If you wouldn't eat it you shouldn't show it'.

However, at shows in the Republic of Ireland it is slightly different as they cook one of the spuds from each dish I believe......weird people those Irish.

Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: love-my-plot on August 10, 2007, 16:17
Quote
weird people those Irish.


Ahem! Nothing weird in wanting to know if the "showpiece" tastes
a good as it looks!

Personally, I don't care what the veg looks like, I'm only interested in
the taste  :D
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Bernard on August 30, 2007, 22:31
I would like to be organic but can't, mainly because of slugs and raspberry beetle.
Derris dust more or less controls the latter but where slugs are concerned,
NO SLUG POISON = NO GARDEN.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: jaycee on September 02, 2007, 09:38
In the veg plot I am totally organic and try to go by the biodymanic principles.  My roses in the beds however are all covered in blackspot so I succumbed and bought some stuff to spray on them. Horror of horrors when I read the instructions it said that it killed bees so back it went to the shop for a refund. I am probably going to take out the roses and go for something else.
P.S. A vet friend of mine tells me that the greatest cause of poisining in dogs in the UK is from slug pellets and it`s an horrific way to die.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: jaycee on September 02, 2007, 09:47
Quote from: "Bernard"
I would like to be organic but can't, mainly because of slugs and raspberry beetle.
Derris dust more or less controls the latter but where slugs are concerned,
NO SLUG POISON = NO GARDEN.


I don`t think that you have the problem that I do here on the damp West Coast of Scotland. It` slug heaven. Have picked as many as 300+ in one evening in under an hour a few of years ago.
Now however we have (almost) learnt to live with one another and we get the most fantastic veg....and raspberries without useing any chemicals. Ok you have to give up the odd cabbage to the butterflies but....
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: WG. on September 02, 2007, 09:51
Quote from: "jaycee"
My roses in the beds however are all covered in blackspot

JC - I found this & thought it might be of interest http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s1885774.htm
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Bernard on September 02, 2007, 11:35
Quote from: "jaycee"
slug heaven. Have picked as many as 300+ in one evening in under an hour a few of years ago.
Now however we have (almost) learnt to live with one another  

A few years ago I was given about 50 fairly mature French marigolds. I planted them and the following morning not as single one was left. I have tried to grow delphiniums many times. The last time I grew then in pots for a whole year to make them as mature as poss, and planted then late following summer. Next year, they did not appear. Some years later I found the reason when I used liquid poison in February. Small grey slugs which normally remain under the soil surface eat the new shoots of perennials so that they never see the light. These slugs are the reason why nematodes won't work, because the temperature at that time is too low for them. (Also I can't afford the nematodes).
A few years ago there was one TV programme wher A Titchmarsh tested several of the traditional organic ways of controlling slugs. He gave the only honest assessment I have ever seen on TV - that for each of the ways, it did not work. The point is, of course, that partial control is no use. Stopping 99% of the slugs is of no value if no. 100 eats the plant.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Caddi fuller-teabags on September 16, 2007, 14:04
We have just taken over a plot and it has now been strimmed.  We intend to glyphosate twice and then rotavate.  From then on we should not need to use chemicals.  Ideally we would not use anything, but realistically, to get started, we need to take drastic action.  Getting a plot started from scratch is very difficult without using helpers of some sort.

I used to like snails but I have found out what they do to my strawberry patch (which we inherited) and gone off them  totally.  DIE, Snails!

Caddi
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: WG. on September 16, 2007, 14:22
I don't actually see that the RoundUp is necessary in your plans.  Rotovate 2 or 3 times instead.  :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: DD. on September 16, 2007, 15:14
Quote from: "whisky_golf"
I don't actually see that the RoundUp is necessary in your plans.  Rotovate 2 or 3 times instead.  :)


It also would not be of much use if all the green stuff has been strimmed off.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: gobs on September 23, 2007, 07:43
I agree, you will get on just as well, without roundup, trust me and these guys.

John, I cannot find a slot, I could fit myself into.

I do not like to be called organic, as I'm not. I think organic toxins are as dangerous, sometimes more so, than synthetic ones: derris, cyanide, etc.

I do not put out anything, other than soap, water and manure and me rubbishy compost...I've given up on biodegradable slug pellets as well, a waste of time and money and harms other creatures, that you would like the help of.

Feed is also a confusing issue. Methinks, plants are wonderful: make life from dead things, convert all sorts of stuff into organic material.  So if they need K, or whatever, it does not much matter where it comes from.   if they get from some rocks in your soil, is that of organic origin? this part seems to me a bit of a daft argument.
So, kinda natural here...wouldn't mind pigeons and squirrels being killed though and rats and mice and slugs and snails and rabbits...
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: love-my-plot on September 23, 2007, 17:06
Quote
Ideally we would not use anything, but realistically, to get started, we need to take drastic action. Getting a plot started from scratch is very difficult without using helpers of some sort.


Yes, it's difficult, & hard work, but worth it. We got our plot earlier this year, over 6ft high with all the usual weeds, couch, marestail etc. Nightmare! We strimmed it down, cleared it bit by bit & covered what we couldn't get to right away, with layers of cardboard. No chemicals at all. It's mostly cleared now and looking really good, so the glyphosate really isn't the neccessity you might think!
Best of luck with it  :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or In-Between
Post by: Joan Kennedy on November 09, 2007, 17:52
I class myself as always following organic "rules" - and I do aim to do so.  

But when I and a friend first got our plot in April, we used treated timber to edge our first 2 beds - without realising this is a no-no.  We are not so fanatical as to replace the boards, but will use untreated wood in future - preferably free recycled wood to keep the cost down.  

I do agree that it is a constant learning curve, this organic gardening stuff, but I'm keen to try the approach of looking after the soil and working with nature.  We managed to get veg this summer - potatoes, broad beans, french beans, peas, runner beans, salad leaf, spinach, sweetcorn, chard, carrots, beetroot, leeks, onions, courgettes and fennel - although in small quantities - and about 12 strawberries!  They did taste gorgeous though - hopefully we will have a few more next year.

Our plot was overgrown with all sorts of weeds - bindweed, dock, nettles, dandelions, marestail, brambles etc., But in April we double dug two new 1 by 4.2m beds to uproot as much as we could - including bits of metal and burnt wood! We then planted in squares (roughly 50cm by 50cm) rather than rows and did our best to kept on top of the weeding amongst our plants.  

We covered most of the the rest of the plot to keep the weeds down elsewhere.  Local supermarkets have been happy to give us waste cardboard and we inherited some tarpaulin and weed suppressing membrane.  Lots of bricks and stones keep the covers in place and we have found, when digging more beds this autumn, that the green weedstuff has gone, but we do still need to dig out the roots of all those pesky perennial weeds.  We know we won't get them all, but can weed and mulch once the beds are in place - and hopefully win the battle.

Having said all this, we did get potato and tomato blight - didn't get a single tomato - and the slugs had a field day on our courgettes.  We just tell ourselves that we are still learning - and we won't always win.

In case anyone is wondering about the width of our beds, we are both short women - not much more than 5ft each - and as the plan is to have raised beds and paths so that the soil does not get walked on, we plumped for 1m beds rather then the recommended 1.2m.  

We did read up a fair bit before and since April - our local library has been fantastic.  The three best books, as far as I'm concerned, were "The Half-Hour Allotment", "Square Foot Gardening" and "Organic Gardening. The No-Dig Way"

 :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Rob the rake on November 25, 2007, 02:04
While I'm on I might as well give you my take on organic growing,and what goes on to my bit of England.

No chemical bug sprays, only home made repellents made from natural ingredients(nettles,comfrey,seaweed,chillies,garlic). Physical barriers.
 
No slug pellets, only barrier methods plus "slug juice"(dead slugs in a bucket of water left to ferment and watered around target plants-works a treat). Old tiles left around the garden provide sluggy hiding places where they can be regularly collected and disposed of. The "stalker" method, with head-torch,kebab skewer and bucket on damp evenings.
A pond is planned for next year, complete with frogs.

No chemical fertilisers.

Every compostable piece of waste from home and garden goes in my row of bins. "Recycled tea" used as an activator!

Herbs and annuals are grown as attractors for beneficial insects.
I use companion planting where possible. Vast amounts of marigolds and tagetes are used as edging plants on most beds.

I have used glyphosate in the past to get rampant bindweed in check, and to help clear a neglected plot, but have read into its effects in some detail recently and will NEVER use it again. It can persist in clay soils for over two years, and is biodegraded at a snail's pace.

I try to attract plenty of songbirds to the garden, by providing nesting boxes, water and food. I have only recently moved to my present plot though and the soil was first priority. This coming year I'll concentrate more on keeping my feathered friends happy. I'll also be making some bug boxes for lacewings,solitary bees and ladybirds.

I do my level best to keep things natural, and am lucky enough to have immediate neighbours who garden using similar principles.

That's how I do it. I'm not saying that everyone should,each to their own,but if you use lots of chemicals then you may as well buy your veg from the supermarket,where you get these added for free(IMHO!).

Rob :D
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: mushroom on November 25, 2007, 09:44
now that I've had the allotment for a bit, I feel that I can say what method is best for me and why.

For clearing a plot, I'll use roundup, for reasons of time and practicality. if you want to get a plot going in a reasonable time and with very limited environmental impact, use it. So, roundup then dig up the dead weeds then rotovate it (several times).

For maintaining a plot, I weed by hand and dig. If a patch of ground isn't going to be used for a while, I'll clear it then cover with plastic.

I haven't used an insecticide yet and have no plans on doing so, (apart from making ones from garlic and aspirin). If we have another slug problem like last year, I'll use pellets, but otherwise just squish em.
In terms of fertilizer, I'll use anything, straight chemical or completely organic. I haven't the luxury of stables nearby or a car. If the site gets a delivery of horse manure, I'll use that. I have 2 compost bins and I need to make another.

For me, it's not really about the 'avoidance of herbicide residues' I think this is nebulous apart from gross contamination - it's about having the freshest possible produce. It's impossible to buy potatoes earthed up an hour ago for dinner. Then there's the ecological considerations transporting them there. I cycle to and from the plot :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Fiona on January 24, 2008, 10:05
I have never used chemicals on my fruit or veg ( and I have a phd in chemistry -- a little knowledge is very dangerous!!!). I will admit to using slug pellets in the flower garden near the deliphiniums, I also use beer traps, egg shell barriers, and sending the children out to squish them with torches in their pyjamas , I have the worlds largest population of slugs ( so as I say the pellets are a last resort and not used in the veg garden).
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Lee1978 on March 05, 2008, 17:57
Hi John,

I try to be as organic as i can but i still use manure on my plot. My neighbour is totally organic he does not use manure at all as he is convinced that there is all sorts of chemicals in that the horses have been fed.
Omegaman1
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Stripey_cat on March 12, 2008, 12:28
I try to be organic, but usually give up once or twice a year (I've never managed two consecutive years without using something I shouldn't have).  In my previous house, it was red ants - we stopped counting at 40 nests in the lawn the year we moved in!  This year, I'm thinking possibly slugs will get on top of me, as they're going strong already.  Also, I was given some ordinary tomato fertiliser by a neighbour clearing their shed, and it seems better to use it than to try to dispose of it safely.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: ck2day on March 17, 2008, 12:28
Hi John,  I will try to be organic however I won't think twice of nuking slugs with pellets if they get too much. Have used beer in the past which was very effective, really depends on how many slugs I get.

Have only started my veg patch this year and am still at the breaking up the soil and waiting for it to warm abit stage before I put my tatties, beetroot and peas in.  Will let you know how I get on.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Teen76 on March 21, 2008, 23:53
I hate the use of any chemicals but over the past year of becoming a gardener as a job I have found the weeds grow ten feet tall before I've gotten to them.  I try to dig them all up if I can but they do get the better of me.  I know that my boss tends to just use it willy nilly really and I'd prefer to just use it when it is absolutely necessary, especially with things such as bindweed which takes over quite viciously (plants die because of this weed).  It is a toughy though I have to admit.  My personal feeling is I'd prefer to be organic but it is not always practical.  I really wish that it was as I worry about plants and wildlife being effected.
Title: organic ?
Post by: peterjf on March 30, 2008, 22:44
in my view , a plot keper can use fertilisers from a farm etc, can used herbicides to give him that edge on the weeds etc , as long as the plot keeper doesnt realy on the artifial fertilisers and herbicides instead of natural ways such as companion planting , composting etc etc etc
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: chimaera on April 29, 2008, 11:27
Everything in the world is a chemical- it just depends on where it comes from. My bugbear is phosphate fertilizer and, as part of what i do, see both sides of its origin. I am convinced that 'CHEMICAL' PHOSPHATE IS LESS ENVIRONMENTALLY DAMAGING THAN 'NATURAL'. The reason is that most 'natural' is from fishmeal, and the majority of this is from targetted fishing for sandeel, anchovy etc, which is causing vast damage to marine ecosystems. 'Chemical' phosphate is also from fish, only they died millions of years ago and are now phosphate rock. This is quarried (exposing vast numbers of fossils as a byproduct!) and then converted to superphosphate on site. Over half comes from Morocco, where I study the fossil sharks. I would rather use long dead fish than destroy shoals of living ones.

Charlie
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: lincspoacher on May 24, 2008, 12:37
Recent News:

I dont know if yo uguys are aware, but basically China( being the major producer) is limiting the export of many mineral agrochemicals, and as such the price of various chemicals such as Sulphate of Potash and Sulphate of Ammonia is rocketing - the latter has doubled in price in the last 3 months. As a result city speculators are making it worse by gambling on agrochemical futures.

Another problem is with bark chips (i use them at the bottom of pots for drainage and to open up composts), but China is also buying up all the trees from Norway/Scandinavia/Finland, so as a result millions of trees that would have come to the UK and turned into timber and bark chips isnt coming, so as you can guess, the price of bark chips and timber is also rocketing. Also, the Irish have built a Power Station that burns...........bark chips. :(
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: amberleaf on June 07, 2008, 13:01
Quote from: "Hazel"
I do try to be organic wherever possible,I think we need to try and get our plant back.as a child I remember all my dad's veggies had a Taste to them I think is lost now adays. Hazel


I hope it was not the DDT they used to use.

Sadly, our taste buds 'go' as we get older, like eye sight, hearing - need I go on? It is a scientific fact, often we think things tasted better. When we used to be able to taste better.

It has to be admitted that we can not buy better tasting than the truly fresh from our pick it and eat it, grown at home.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Ratty on June 11, 2008, 14:21
I am as organic as I can be, but will use herbicides on things like bindweed and use artificial fertilizers where required.

Don't get me wrong, I am not adverse to digging in a couple of tons of horse manure, and as this season ends I am going to try green manures. But will use stuff like growmore and tomato feeds.

At the end of the day, it all chemicals in a certain percentage, just from a different source.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: SalJ1980 on July 06, 2008, 16:07
I haven't voted as there isn't an option which quite covers 'me' - a combination of a few of them might do the job...

"I think organics is good in theory, I am pretty organic and so far I have avoided using herbicides and pesticides, and will avoid doing so as far as possible, unless I absolutely have to. I have however just realised that my tomato feed isn't certified organic, but the sky hasn't fallen in yet."

Hmmm, I guess that I'm just being a bit fussy over the polling options and that really is just number 2 on the list (I am pretty organic but sometimes use artificial fertilisers) so I'll go back and vote for that!

:lol:
Title: organic
Post by: beetrootboy on July 09, 2008, 21:10
im all for organic its tasts much better
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: JOHNTY on July 14, 2008, 22:09
Hiya Folks,

Would love to go all organic on my two allotments but ...

I lack the time to pick up all the slugs, snails, caterpillars, black-fly etc from all my produce by hand - and one at a time, too. And if I did have the time where would I put them: on my neighbours plots? Should I drown them? But that wouldn't be nice either. A garden path flame thrower weed killer might do the trick - nah it would cook my runner beans before they reached the pot.

Just kidding - but the above are indeed a problem for all of us who don't like to kill those little pests - me included. But there are time when I have to admit defeat and out come the little blue pellets and black-fly spray. I've had to use the spay this year because they seem to be really loving this cool, windy, sunless summer. I almost lost all my runner beans this year -they were massed in them, really, really badly.
     
I look after my plots: weed them, keep them as tidy as I can but if you have allotment neighbours who don't because they haven't the time then my and your plots get invaded by their rampant pests.

Can anyone tell me why the slugs on my allotment are far bigger than the ones at home?  :lol:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Peggy Sue on July 25, 2008, 14:44
I've never used anything at home, but now we have an allotment its a bit tricky. We are the first plot through the gate so if someone spots we have some evil invader they are quick to point it out and the pressure is on not to be the one that spreads it though the allotments!

I have only used wildlife friendly slug pellets in moderation and once derris. Other than that the washing up liquid spray for the blackfly seems to work well enough :D

I think the majority lie in that sort of category where we are....until there's a rabbit killer in a bottle and then... :twisted:
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: lincspoacher on July 26, 2008, 16:52
I found this interesting, because, if you knew the truth, you'd realise almost nothing is organic as claimed.

The rule is that as long as TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE you add nothing chemical or  unnatural to a process, then you can claim its organic.

It's quite possible that further down the chain, several processes earlier, something non- organic occurred, but as long as you dont know about it, then you're organic.

Take food. It might have been grown in an 'organic' way, but its possible that chemical processes were used making the fertiliser thats in the compost. So its hardly organic, but the seller of the food can claim 'organic' because he has no connection or knowledge of the fertiliser process.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: dugless on August 16, 2008, 23:51
Is is rather interesting the winning poll so far is a cop out .You are
organic or your not.

I prefer to be more honest,
I think organics is good in theory but not too practical
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: peapod on August 22, 2008, 20:04
Quote from: "dugless"
Is is rather interesting the winning poll so far is a cop out .You are
organic or your not.

I prefer to be more honest,
I think organics is good in theory but not too practical


The title doesnt suggest organic or not, theres an inbetween option.  I dont think its a cop out unless you CALL yourself organic which I dont,its not that black and white for me like most things. However there are things I wont use, but I wouldnt blame or judge anyone else for using them.
I use slug pellets when I have to, but wouldnt use glyphosate for example, though I can understand why people do.

I aim to be as organic as I can and use my own compost and recycle as much as I possible, but as a skint student with a 5 member family, I have to weigh up the cost of my plot. I cant afford to lose my veg, ergo I use slug pellets.  I can find the time to dig out weeds however.

Paula
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Peggy Sue on August 26, 2008, 08:19
There is definitely a good reason in my mind to not do endless 'preventative' chemical use- as per farming. I love the thought of being totally organic, but the slugs are so rampant and I ahve tried every other wierd and wonderful method at the end of the day after planting and losing 4 packets of lettuce seed you ahve to do something or just stop planting!

I use organic slug pellets, but to be frank they are clearly only an opt out if you really really wanted complete freedom from chemicals this wouldn't count! Liekwise I use washing up liquid if the blackfly get too rampant, it can't really be organic but its a minimal impact on me and my food which is a vast improvement on commercial goods I believe.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: orfy on August 27, 2008, 10:10
I'm between 2 and 3 I think.
I won't use chemical unless I need to.
I once use black fly spray and I use tomato food and lime.
How does that count?

I'm afraid I follow my own criteria rater than someone else's rules so I don't know if that makes me organic or not.

I guess the word "Organic" is a legal term.

That I don't agree with.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Peggy Sue on August 27, 2008, 10:47
Its a good point, we all have our own principles and things we want to achieve, Organic is really a marketing name in fact so it isn't at all relevent in terms of the commerical rules to us who just grow and eat. We would only want to be 'organic' to fulfill our beliefs- be it about better wildlife or healthier veg, we don't want to label and market wha we grow.

There are some rules int he commercial world that don't really fit helping health or wildlife - at one stage you could grow organic stuff using hydroponics, for example (that might ahve changed now?) which won't help us from a nutirent point of view, nor is it helping wildlife in anyway as it's completely isolated in greenhouses.

Maybe we need the question to be how much do we think chemicals affect health & wildlife or something along those lines??
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: orfy on August 27, 2008, 11:09
I think a better term is natural rather than organic.

The way nature intended and in harmony with it rather than fighting it.
I don't think there is any harm in helping it and giving crops the best growing environment using natural means.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Peggy Sue on August 27, 2008, 11:36
I like that! :)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: jamesmiddz on August 27, 2008, 13:28
For an effective weed killer, you could try Rhubarb leaves! Lay them over problem areas - They surpress light and poison any thing alive underneath...I've been told ;)

I am currently trying it out myself, so watch this space.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: PatR on September 05, 2008, 12:44
I sort of cheated... I voted the first one, because I agree with organics and dont use artificial fertiliser.. my fertiliser is organic Guano, but I would probably spray  insecticide if my crop was badly threatend as its what feeds us during the winter here , what we dont grow , we dont eat and I need the food.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: lincspoacher on September 19, 2008, 23:19
Quote from: "Judymac"


I do use soapy water for aphids, beer traps for slugs, hand picking for colorado beetle and caterpillars,


Judy



You DO know the Colorado beetle (Leptinotarsa decemlineata) is not established in the UK and is a notifiable quarantine pest, whose introduction is prohibited under the EC Single Market Protected zone arrangements for Plant Health?

If you identify just one single beetle you must  tell DEFRA by law.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: lincspoacher on September 19, 2008, 23:23
Quote from: "Peggy Sue"
Its a good point, we all have our own principles and things we want to achieve, Organic is really a marketing name in fact so it isn't at all relevent in terms of the commerical rules to us who just grow and eat.


'Organic' as  a label on plants is a farce. Its Organic if you are not aware of anything in the process YOU use that contravenes the rules. That means those before you in the production chain can do what they like, as long as YOU stick to the rules, its organic.


In fact, before the invention of Superphosphate in 1925 all farming was effectively organic. Its a marketing gimmick.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Steve.P on September 23, 2008, 21:39
This is nearly the end of my second year of allotment growing, and so far have not used any chemicals at all. Not sure what the previous owner used, but the plot was abandoned for about three years. I try to hand pull most of the weeds. It had a good dose of horse manure over the winter, which seemed to work well, which brings me to a good point. If horses are fed on man made horse feed, and are given antibiotics, what does this mean for the veg grown in the soil that contains this manure?
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Peggy Sue on September 24, 2008, 08:39
I don't think antibiotics are your worry, horse owners will only give those if the horse is really un well- once in a blue moon, not like chickens that get them daily! You need worry more about what their grass is sprayed with in terms of herbicides and some worry about the wormers affecting worm colonies (although in my experience the worms love it)
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Faz on October 30, 2008, 13:03
I think it really helps if you've got loads of other non-crop stuff growing, that's my excuse for not weeding so often anyway!

For example, I had a small outbreak of greenfly in my greenhouse earlier in the year and was considering how to treat them when I saw I had some little white grubs on them which turned out to be hoverfly larvae happily munching the greenfly!

I've also got hedgehogs and loads of frogs helping to keep the slugs in check, which I also try to kill off using beer traps. Oh and I've also got slow worms and even common lizards all doing their bit too!

So pest control hasn't been a major problem this year but I expect it won't always be so easy. next year I'll be planting some marigolds and other flowering plants to encourage more hoverflies and bees though.
Title: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: joshwain on January 15, 2009, 19:05
I think most people try to stay organic and just go off track if they need to...
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Zippy on February 08, 2009, 23:27
Couldnt get the poll to work but

I am a 1. In fact I am veganic - I dont use animal manures or blood,fish and bone.

Why lug car loads of animal dung to your plot when a crop of green manure will do the samed job just as well or even better.  :D
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: John on February 09, 2009, 18:21
Couldnt get the poll to work but

 In fact I am veganic -


Don't worry Zippy, all races welcome on here :)

More seriously, I think I've fixed the problem with the poll which was a glitch from our change of software recently

Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: bisgedyn on February 11, 2009, 10:11

I try to be organic but if someone gives me non-organic seeds I'll still use them.
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: mor on February 18, 2009, 20:52
organic does it best test better more healthy
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Diy-king on February 25, 2009, 07:05
I took over my plot in December 2007 and it took me untill September to dig out all or at least 90% of the couch, mares tail and bind weed. It seemed that I would never finish but I am now very happy with the results. While digging I still managed to plant some crops and managed to get about 250lbs of potatoes and 230lbs of runner beans. This year I will have the time to tend the crops properly and pull the few weeds (no weed killer).
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Teen76 on March 20, 2009, 21:54
Near the start of this topic I think I said I would prefer to be organic, but said sometimes its not always possible.

I've recently being on a pesticide spraying course, because I am a part-time gardener and have to do this to use weedkiller etc.

I have to say it actually made me not want to not use them even more.  It just made me think more about it.  I think if I have a choice I don't want to use weedkiller unless it gets to the point that insanity is about to occur.  I am trying to read about alternatives and other ways of doing things.  I think its going to be a trial by error kind of system but fun to find out what works and what doesn't.

Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Bozwell on May 25, 2009, 07:50
I would love to be totaly organic, it does seem better :). Though I don't think I ever will totaly. For example I am sure you all have hanging baskets and planters, it seems the norm these days to use things like miricle grow, they are not organic surely.
 See thats the trouble you don't entirely know whats on the shelf down at the garden centers is organic or not, and when it reads organic on the label they want to charge the earth for it. :wacko:
Title: Re: Organic Gardener, Chemical Gardener or in between?
Post by: Kristen on May 25, 2009, 07:58
"the norm these days to use things like miricle grow, they are not organic surel"

Miracle Gro have an organic range of Composts and Feeds:

Link (http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productCategorySubSelf.jsp?navAction=jump&itemId=cat80014&id=cat50006)