Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

mjg000 · « **on:** December 23, 2015, 14:13 »

Oh the joys of the winter months!!

I have just spent 2 days doing an Excel spreadsheet of my seed packets and because I received a wonderful parcel in the post from Baker Creek Heirloom Seed Co. I decided to mark up which seeds were heirloom and then which were F1 hybrids. Most don't seem to have any such description on the packet.

My questions are these:
1. Is it compulsory to mark seeds for sale as F1 if they are?
2. Is "heirloom" an actual reality or does it just describe seeds that were perhaps once commonplace but are not easily available now? Who decides?
3. If there is no F1 hybrid mark on the packet does that mean that the seeds should always come true?
4. If you are self-saving from non F1 hybrids, how important is it to keep the flowers un-contaminated by other similar plants growing nearby?

Norfolkgrey · « **Reply #1 on:** December 23, 2015, 14:33 »

1. Is it compulsory to mark seeds for sale as F1 if they are?

Dunno. I thought seeds were meant to be marked up as f1 but have come across a few times in the past when they haven't been.

2. Is "heirloom" an actual reality or does it just describe seeds that were perhaps once commonplace but are not easily available now? Who decides?

Heirloom/heritage are from what I understand an open pollinated variety with a history.

3. If there is no F1 hybrid mark on the packet does that mean that the seeds should always come true?

see no. 1. Just to be pedantic F1's come true not open-pollinated. All F1's should grow at the same strength, rate and produce at the same time, however open pollinated will vary hence why open pollinated tend to be for gardeners not farmers as they are likely to get a prolonged harvesting time.

4. If you are self-saving from non F1 hybrids, how important is it to keep the flowers un-contaminated by other similar plants growing nearby?

It depends on the family. Squash will happily cross with any other (within the particular squash family) and the offspring are unlikely to be good and will resemble all sorts. However, FCB will rarely cross. Have a look at the seed circle, Surbie has put up some great seed saving links.

BabbyAnn · « **Reply #2 on:** December 23, 2015, 14:34 »

Quote

1. Is it compulsory to mark seeds for sale as F1 if they are?

Baker Creek Heirloom is a US seed supplier so probably doesn't come under the same "rules"

Quote

2. Is "heirloom" an actual reality or does it just describe seeds that were perhaps once commonplace but are not easily available now? Who decides?

Heirloom means it is a well established variety / cultivar that has stood the test of time - usually a variety that was grown say for example in a small village in Italy or Romania etc and then someone from the US or wherever "discovered" it and took some seeds to grow on. It makes it sound romantic rather than practical, but what it comes down to is that it is an open pollinated variety rather than a hybrid

Quote

3. If there is no F1 hybrid mark on the packet does that mean that the seeds should always come true?

Recently the Crimson Crush tomato was debated about its origins because it was not listed on the supplier website (it was sold as plants, I think seed become available in 2016) Somewhere there is a list of every single tomato variety which should tell you if it is open pollination (OP) or 1st hybrid (F1) but I'm not sure where to look for it.

Quote

4. If you are self-saving from non F1 hybrids, how important is it to keep the flowers un-contaminated by other similar plants growing nearby?

non-F1 hybrid ... so you mean open pollinated? It is VERY important to keep similar plants away if you want to save seed as cross pollination is highly likely. Winter squashes, pumpkins and courgette/marrows readily cross pollinate as do chilli and peppers given half the chance. And nearby is as far away as any bee can travel - if growing on an allotment plot, your immediate neighbours might not be growing similar plants but someone a bit further on might be.

Goneterseed · « **Reply #3 on:** December 23, 2015, 15:43 »

Is this the list, BabbyAnn?

https://njaes.rutgers.edu/tomato-varieties/

BabbyAnn · « **Reply #4 on:** December 23, 2015, 15:48 »

Quote from: Goneterseed on December 23, 2015, 15:43

Is this the list, BabbyAnn?

https://njaes.rutgers.edu/tomato-varieties/

hmmm, I don't think so - the list I've seen is much more detailed (a bit like the Potato Council, but more complex information - to be honest, I didn't understand it) And there are absolutely 1000s of varieties of tomatoes world-wide which is why that list didn't seem big enough.

mjg000 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 23, 2015, 22:55 »

That's not really the route I was thinking of going.

Much more an analysis of the typical seed packet on a garden centre rack. How do we work out what we are growing? I want to grow strong plants able to resist the pests and tribulations of an ordinary allotment but still growing plants that can be grown from my seed or your seed on a year by year basis. Really back to basics, without being full on about anything.

Norfolkgrey · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2015, 07:46 »

Back to basics

Then if it says F1 rule it out, if it doesn't then assume it is open pollinated. If you really aren't sure about a variety then gurgle or ask on here. Another tell tale sign with bought is F1 you tend to get a few seeds where as open pollinated you get lots.

Unfortunately the seed saving side requires a little research. But peas, french beans,toms and lettuce can be collected easily. Some things like brassica or beet family might mean only allow one variety run to seed. However, chillis, sweet peppers and squash require isolation and quite likely hand polination.

To get strong plants that resist you should select seed from the strongest each year and create a strain which is perfect for where you are but it will take time

mumofstig · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2015, 08:08 »

Open pollinated seed will always give plants that are non-identical - that can be an advantage, cos how many people want a row of caulis that all ripen at once? which is what you can get with f1 varieties. You still have to guard against cross pollination from different varieties with fleece or some other barrier.

F1s are bred to achieve a desirable result - eg for taste, a thicker skin for market, to harvest all at the same time, to be resistant to rust/club root etc. Sometimes they ARE just what you want, sometimes not. You can't save seed from these, you have to buy fresh seed each year to get the same results. They should always be labelled as f1 but this does seem inconsistent

USA may have different rules re labelling.

Heritage varieties are just older varieties that grew well in certain conditions/locations, so people saved the seeds year after year.They may not work in your conditions, but if you find a variety that does, and you make sure they can't cross pollinate with other varieties, then you can save seed from these.

whitehill1 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2016, 14:51 »

can not imagine my self worrying about hand polinate. so better to go for easy ones...still I like to save some usual courgette/marrow seeds ..and see if they come to true type next year ..

surbie100 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2016, 15:59 »

Quote from: whitehill on January 05, 2016, 14:51

can not imagine my self worrying about hand polinate. so better to go for easy ones...still I like to save some usual courgette/marrow seeds ..and see if they come to true type next year ..

Having tasted some of the 'let them do their thing' courgettes and chillies which were left to pollinate, I would only grow from properly isolated/hand pollinated seeds. I don't have the growing space/patience to waste on plants that don't have tasty veg.

Quote from: mjg000 on December 23, 2015, 14:13

Oh the joys of the winter months!! I have just spent 2 days doing an Excel spreadsheet of my seed packets and because I received a wonderful parcel in the post from Baker Creek Heirloom Seed Co. I decided to mark up which seeds were heirloom and then which were F1 hybrids. Most don't seem to have any such description on the packet.

My questions are these:
1. Is it compulsory to mark seeds for sale as F1 if they are?
2. Is "heirloom" an actual reality or does it just describe seeds that were perhaps once commonplace but are not easily available now? Who decides?
3. If there is no F1 hybrid mark on the packet does that mean that the seeds should always come true?
4. If you are self-saving from non F1 hybrids, how important is it to keep the flowers un-contaminated by other similar plants growing nearby?

Baker Creek specialises in open-pollinated varieties - am v willing to be corrected, but I don't think they sell F1s at all.

For other seed companies, unless I knew for sure I would research the variety before seed saving. They don't always mark that it is an F1. The Crimson Crush introduction was a good case in point. Makes me cross...!

Joining a seed circle is a really good way to get some new open-pollinated varieties - it costs v little to take part. (Yes, I am recruiting!

)

Quote from: BabbyAnn on December 23, 2015, 14:34

Somewhere there is a list of every single tomato variety which should tell you if it is open pollination (OP) or 1st hybrid (F1) but I'm not sure where to look for it.

Do you mean Tatiana's Tomato Variety List? It has nearly 5,000 varieties listed.

mjg000 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2016, 17:29 »

Having tasted some of the 'let them do their thing' courgettes and chillies which were left to pollinate, I would only grow from properly isolated/hand pollinated seeds. I don't have the growing space/patience to waste on plants that don't have tasty veg.

Surbie - Forgive my ignorance ...... I planted out a mixed bag of courgette/squash and pumpkins in close proximity last year - could cross pollination (or lack of it from the right plant) be the reason for so little fruiting ( ie no courgettes and only 2 very small Turks Turban) or was it just the summer we had? ie would cross pollination mean poor or peculiar shaped/tasting produce in that year or is it the seeds inside the "product" which would then produce strange crosses the next year?

"Joining a seed circle is a really good way to get some new open-pollinated varieties - it costs v little to take part. (Yes, I am recruiting!

)"
I have watched in admiration at al the seed saving and swapping going on under your guidance..... only have a dozen or so Tomatillo self saved seeds this year, but with all the information forthcoming on here I may well be ready to spring into action next year!

Norfolkgrey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2016, 17:40 »

Quote from: mjg000 on January 05, 2016, 17:29

Surbie - Forgive my ignorance ...... I planted out a mixed bag of courgette/squash and pumpkins in close proximity last year - could cross pollination (or lack of it from the right plant) be the reason for so little fruiting ( ie no courgettes and only 2 very small Turks Turban) or was it just the summer we had? ie would cross pollination mean poor or peculiar shaped/tasting produce in that year or is it the seeds inside the "product" which would then produce strange crosses the next year?

Cross pollination should increase the chance of more fruit (more pollen is a good thing no matter where it comes from, although they need to be compatible). It won't affect the fruit taste and crop wise, it is only if you grow the seed from it the following year. I do not recommend pumpkin marrows

edit to fix quote

Trikidiki · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2016, 21:50 »

Sweetcorn being an exception.

Pollination of Supersweet corn by other corns will not produce Supersweet cobs.

surbie100 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2016, 22:43 »

Quote from: Norfolkgrey on January 05, 2016, 17:40

Quote from: mjg000 on January 05, 2016, 17:29
Surbie - Forgive my ignorance ...... I planted out a mixed bag of courgette/squash and pumpkins in close proximity last year - could cross pollination (or lack of it from the right plant) be the reason for so little fruiting ( ie no courgettes and only 2 very small Turks Turban) or was it just the summer we had? ie would cross pollination mean poor or peculiar shaped/tasting produce in that year or is it the seeds inside the "product" which would then produce strange crosses the next year?

Cross pollination should increase the chance of more fruit (more pollen is a good thing no matter where it comes from, although they need to be compatible). It won't affect the fruit taste and crop wise, it is only if you grow the seed from it the following year. I do not recommend pumpkin marrows

edit to fix quote

What Norfolkgrey said.

Pollination affefcts next year's fruit. Lack of fruit can be down to a few things, though lack of pollination is one. A butternut won't pollinate a courgette, for example, because their families are different.

The more the merrier seed circle-wise. You don't have to grow from saved seeds, just save from what you grow. If that makes sense!

Has anyone saved seeds? Started by Flower on Grow Your Own	4 Replies 2104 Views	November 18, 2006, 21:00 by Flower
Yorkie saved the day Started by Beetroot queen on Grow Your Own	11 Replies 3125 Views	May 22, 2013, 19:14 by Annen
Replanting saved shallots? Started by Potty Plotty Lotty on Grow Your Own	2 Replies 443 Views	September 29, 2022, 11:55 by cc
saved tomato seeds Started by jambop on Grow Your Own	3 Replies 1828 Views	January 26, 2016, 09:32 by ARPoet

Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

mjg000

Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Norfolkgrey

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

BabbyAnn

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Goneterseed

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

BabbyAnn

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

mjg000

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Norfolkgrey

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

mumofstig

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

whitehill1

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

surbie100

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

mjg000

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Norfolkgrey

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Trikidiki

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

surbie100

Re: Heritage, Hybrid F1, and self saved

Similar Topics

Has anyone saved seeds?

Yorkie saved the day

Replanting saved shallots?

saved tomato seeds