Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Eating and Drinking => Cooking, Storing and Preserving => Topic started by: Snoop on August 22, 2015, 11:44
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On the thread about jars for pasta sauce, the conversation moved on from jars to pressure canners. So I've quoted LotuSeed from that thread and carried on from there.
Not to split hairs, but a pressure cooker is not the same thing as a pressure canner. A pressure canner can be used as a pressure cooker but a pressure cooker isn't suitable for use as a canner.
The following link makes interesting reading, especially for people in Europe who can't buy American pressure canners without forking out huge sums of money:
http://www.hippressurecooking.com/pressure-canning-faq-put-em-up/#diff
I looked for large pressure cookers on Amazon in the UK and saw the Kuhn Rikon large ones. Still expensive, plus not recommended for canning because you can't vent them for ten minutes before putting the weight on. So, size alone is not the only factor.
The 10-litre Fagor canning set mentioned on the hippressurecooking site had me interested. The set isn't available in Spain, even though Fagor is a Spanish company, but I can buy a Fagor 10-litre pressure cooker here, just not with a canning kit.
If any bottlers/canners want to chip in, especially about whether the large Fagor pressure cooker will do, I'd be glad to hear any views/advice/recommendations/warnings! My only reservation so far is that with only two weights to choose from, it's not as sensitive as a pressure canner with a gauge, but it would at least be safe. Plus I think it would be difficult to get gauges checked every year outside North America.
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It's not just the size the matters. A canner has to be able to reach a certain temperature and regulate it. I vent mine for 7 minutes before adding the weight as per the instruction manual. Also, the weights available for use are important as well as different foods call for different processing times based on not only the food's acidity and density but also the elevation. Different altitudes call for different weights and processing times. I'm below 1000ft elevation so I usually use the 10lb weight. (Based on the chart provided by NCHFP) People at higher altitudes often times have to use 15lb weights and or longer processing times. Mine has a dial gauge and a weighted gauge but it's the gauge I pay attention to as the dial is meant more as a visual indicator and it can be off. Next season, or at the end of this season, I'll have my canner tested by my extension office, as is recommended to do every few years,
The other issue to consider when pressure canning is the jars you have access to. Many different types of jars can stand being plunked into a pot of boiling water for boiling water bath processing, but those same jars may not fair so well in a pressure canner, you'd end up with ruined food and lots of broken glass. Not fun.
Here's a link that explains the difference pretty simply
http://foodsafety.wisc.edu/consumer/fact_sheets/pressurecannerandcooker.pdf
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P.S. If you decide to purchase the kit, I recommend buying an extra gasket, or two as they will need to be replaced periodically.
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I don't think we can source pressure canners in the UK. Except perhaps at a HUGE delivery cost from the US !
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One of these might suit your purpose, Aunt Sally:
http://www.mcm-europe.fr/en/120-sterilizers-and-pasteurizers-weck
I'd jump at the 29-litre one, except I live off-grid and am not in a position to power one just yet.
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It's not me that want's to bottle produce, Snoop. I thought it was you :lol:
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Quite right, Aunt Sally. I was jumping to conclusions.
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I don't think we can source pressure canners in the UK. Except perhaps at a HUGE delivery cost from the US !
That's really sad! I didn't know that! Don't know how I could function in this world without a pressure canner on hand, as I can up all our culled chickens and deer meat with it and that's the only meat we ever eat. Though I have canned both in a boiling water bath like they did in the olden times here in the mountains, so I guess I could do without it if need be.
I did a little search of the Amazon.com in the UK and y'all are getting ripped off...big time. A simple Mirro canner I can get for $38 and free shipping is 201 pounds and 4 pounds delivery. $315 for a canner!!!!! :ohmy:
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I don't think we can source pressure canners in the UK. Except perhaps at a HUGE delivery cost from the US !
That's really sad! I didn't know that! Don't know how I could function in this world without a pressure canner on hand, as I can up all our culled chickens and deer meat with it and that's the only meat we ever eat. Though I have canned both in a boiling water bath like they did in the olden times here in the mountains, so I guess I could do without it if need be.
I did a little search of the Amazon.com in the UK and y'all are getting ripped off...big time. A simple Mirro canner I can get for $38 and free shipping is 201 pounds and 4 pounds delivery. $315 for a canner!!!!! :ohmy:
Yep, we get ripped off very frequently, you should see what we pay for petrol !
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Hmmmm! How much would a flight be? Almost as cheap to go and get one and have a holiday at the same time. :nowink:
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Hmmmm! How much would a flight be? Almost as cheap to go and get one and have a holiday at the same time. :nowink:
But you'd still be left with the problem of getting the gauge checked to make sure it was still accurate. :(
Which is why I was hoping that a large pressure cooker that could be vented might do the job.
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My pressure cooker which must be almost 30 years old has instructions for bottling, which preserving the fruits whole in jars, in brine or syrup. Is that the same thing as canning? Because it also has instructions for preparing food for canning with cans and a canning machine. I've never seen one of those anywhere either, maybe it was popular in the wartime.
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My pressure cooker which must be almost 30 years old has instructions for bottling, which preserving the fruits whole in jars, in brine or syrup. Is that the same thing as canning?
Brits use the term bottling for what Americans call canning.
I'm intrigued by your pressure cooker. Is it very large? Can you tell me anything about its pressure levels? The book might say. Plus, does it give you any idea in the recipes what size jars to use for particular processing times.
By the way, I'm impressed you still have the instructions. Mr Snoop would give you a gold medal. I'm a terror for misplacing things. :blush:
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Jq3hmlhaGgo/Vdny6wXG8VI/AAAAAAAAYT8/p0Hn7cEbXvI/s512-Ic42/WP_000835.jpg)
As you see, somewhat distressed :nowink: but still readable.
I found a link to a more modern version [size=78%]http://www.prestige.co.uk/pressure-cookers.html?material=63 (http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?action=seored;u=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wcmVzdGlnZS5jby51ay9wcmVzc3VyZS1jb29rZXJzLmh0bWw/bWF0ZXJpYWw9NjM=)[/size]
which might help. Mine has the same type of weight on the top as the 6 litre one but of course mine only did pints.
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Most standard pressure canners don't have a gauge, so no need to get it pressure checked or calibrated in any way in order to pressure can. My pressure canner doesn't have a gauge at all...it has a "15 lb" weight that rides on top of the pressure vent to exert the correct amount of pressure on the steam in the canner. We actually prefer those without the gauge because the steam can build up silently and, unless you are checking that gauge all the time, you may not be there to turn down the heat at the proper time....and that's when folks hear stories of pressure canners blowing up.
We like the noisy ones...jigglers, whistlers, spinners, etc.
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Ummmm most standard pressure canners DO have a gauge. They are either dial gauge or weighted gauge. Mine is considered a weighted gauge. It has a dial that indicates internal pressure but this is not the sole indicator of pressure as would be the case with a dial gauge canner. For a weighted gauge canner, the pressure regulator weight (5,10,15lb) goes on top of the vent pipe and jiggles during processing. On a dial gauge canner, a counterweight goes on the vent pipe but does not jiggle so the only way to tell the pressure is by reading the dial (some companies sell counter weights to use instead of the standard one). The dial on my All American model is used only as a visual reference as the regulator weight jiggling indicates the actual correct pressure and that it has been reached and is being maintained. There is also an overpressure plug that will automatically vent if for some reason the vent pipe were to become blocked (causing an unsafe increase in pressure). MODERN canners have overpressure valves to avoid "blowing up". Venting prior to adding the weight expels air inside the canner. If air is trapped inside the canner (resulting in air pockets) it can cause the internal temperature to be lower than required for safe processing low acid foods (240F). Having dial gauge canners checked every few years is recommended as a means of ensuring accuracy and thusly, safety. The link below is to a reputable source that discusses the safest and most up to date methods available in the U.S.
http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/uga/using_press_canners.html
As for the difference between a canner and a cooker, is the capacity (it should be able to hold 4 quart sized jars) and the ability to accurately and consistently regulate temperature.
Edited for clarity
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Perhaps I haven't used the right terminology. When I said gauge, I meant the dial that reads the level of internal pressure.
The Fagor doesn't have a dial. Its operating pressures are just over 11 psi and 15 psi. It can be vented.
Beekissed, do you always can at 15 lbs regardless of what it is you're canning (fruit or meat, say)?
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It sounds the same as mine. It has a weight of 5,10 or 15lbs pressure, with a safety plug which blows if the pressure is too much. It may be that the pressure scanners you have have heavier gauge metal than the ordinary pressure cookers. It has the same adjustments for altitude as you mentioned too.
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Sorry Snoop, my reply was in reference to the comment "most pressure canners do not have a gauge".
Annen Mirro and I think Presto, make canners that are lightweight and fairly thin and I believe they require a rubber or silicone gasket that creates an airtight seal when the lid is placed on and twisted into position. All Americans are much thicker by comparison, made of cast aluminum, and require no gasket. The seal is metal to metal. The lid hooks into position when turned and then tightened down with wing nuts. The same company also makes sterilizers (which are used for an entirely different purpose.) The thinner ones are lighter, but the gaskets have to be replaced periodically. The All American doesn't require a gasket but it's considerably heavier. The modeli have weighs 25lbs empty.
The regulator you have sounds similar to my setup and the booklet that came with it also has different processing times and weights depending on altitude and food type.
I only use mine as a canner and most recipes usually call for the 10lb weight, but there is usually an option to increase the weight (increase in temp) and decrease processing time. I don't think I've ever used the 5lb one and rarely use the 15.
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Perhaps I haven't used the right terminology. When I said gauge, I meant the dial that reads the level of internal pressure.
The Fagor doesn't have a dial. Its operating pressures are just over 11 psi and 15 psi. It can be vented.
Beekissed, do you always can at 15 lbs regardless of what it is you're canning (fruit or meat, say)?
Snoop, I don't can fruit in a pressure canner....about the only thing I can in the pressure canner is meat and it requires the 15 PSI, so I go with that.
Yep, the more expensive canners may have a dial but the dial gauge isn't needed at all for successful canning, so no need to have one. Just using the correct weight for the right foods seems to be adequate.
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Using weight higher than necessary can cause over processing, which means mushy food lol. Fruits are usually processed in a boiling water bath, meat, poultry, fish, legumes and other low acid foods are processed in a pressure canner. Those are the most up to date methods recommended for safety purposes based on science, current technology and lots of research and testing.
Using a pressure cooker to cook food for immediate consumption is different than canning food in a canner for later use.
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Having worked in the scientific field , molecular biology, I have some knowledge of this sort of thing. I would have no hesitation in using a good pressure cooker for the sterilisation of tomato passata indeed I would have no hesitation in using a boiling water method for tomato passata and even things like ratatouille... and no I don't add lemon or citric acid. It is all about confidence and knowledge but Italian and French country people have been conserving food by this method for years the secret is knowing the right amount of time to give the processing.
I know people here who can meat products with a boiling water bath and they can eat the food in the jars over a year later. The point is most of what people conserve is cooked before it goes into the jar in the first place it is then sterilised after that.
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Yep...I've done meat in a boiling water bath, just to see if it can be done. It can...even raw packed. The old mountain folks in this state have been doing all foods in a boiling water bath for generations without fear of contamination or illness because they have confidence in their methods and hygiene when canning.
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Jambop, have you ever seen these in use in France?
http://www.mcm-europe.fr/en/120-sterilizers-and-pasteurizers-weck
I understand you can even bottle patés, terrines and thick soups with them, which is something Americans don't can.
If you have seen these devices, could you give me any advice? We can't run a freezer, as we have a solar set-up for electricity, but I could run a generator to power one of these sterilisers from time to time. A pressure canner would solve the problem of power (I could use gas) during the actual canning, but in terms of the things that can be bottled, I think one of these sterilisers would better suit our requirements.
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Yes seen those snoop but these are not a pressure vessel! They are simply an electric water boiler into which you put the jars of food to be preserved. I use what most other French people use which is a galvanised bucket with a lid and column onto which you fix the jars. It can hold up to 11 litre jars or smaller ones. The bath is filled to re required level then brought to the boil with a gas heater put the jars in and bring back to the boil and then boil for the required time. Essentially you can use any large stock pot with a gas ring and butane gas bottle. The boiling water method is a very useful way of doing home preserving. The whole thing is down to knowledge and cleanliness there are load of vids on youtube.
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Thanks Jambop. I realised they weren't a pressure vessel. Do you can soups using your method?
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Snoop you can preserve anything using the boiling waterbath method provided you do it properly observing the correct time at the right temperature. People have used this method for god knows how long I do not want to be unkind but all the rot you hear about using pressure canning methods and low acid food problems comes out of America where the FDA have to give all sorts of guidelines because of litigation against equipment manufacturers. If you know what you are doing and make sure you use clean jars and new seals every time and boil for the correct time then you have no problems with anything. I have to say I don't do meats but soup, pasatta and vegs are no problem.
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Snoop you can preserve anything using the boiling waterbath method provided you do it properly observing the correct time at the right temperature. People have used this method for god knows how long I do not want to be unkind but all the rot you hear about using pressure canning methods and low acid food problems comes out of America where the FDA have to give all sorts of guidelines because of litigation against equipment manufacturers. If you know what you are doing and make sure you use clean jars and new seals every time and boil for the correct time then you have no problems with anything. I have to say I don't do meats but soup, pasatta and vegs are no problem.
It is an age old tradition to preserve all sorts of food using the waterbath method Jambop. As you say, hygiene and knowledge are the key, but this subject has come up on here fairly recently and there are very different opinions on it. I for one did do a bit of reading up on it. There is a chance that botulism can already be present in the food and in low acid canned or bottled items, it can then start to grow. A normal waterbath does not kill it as it is not hot enough.
As you say, people have done the same for years with no problems at all, but it is up to the individual to decide for themselves. If you are confident you know what you are doing, then fine, but if you prefer to pressure can some items, then it is a valid choice as well :)
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I understand you can even bottle patés, terrines and thick soups with them, which is something Americans don't can.
Eh? Americans can up thick soups all the time. ??? I've got several jars of "thick" soup base sitting on my shelf right now. We'll can up most anything, given the chance. :lol:
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Eh? Americans can up thick soups all the time. ??? I've got several jars of "thick" soup base sitting on my shelf right now. We'll can up most anything, given the chance. :lol:
Well, that's interesting Beekissed. I thought official advice in the States was no canning thick (dense) soups because of the possibility that the stuff at the centre of the jars won't get sufficiently hot to guarantee safety.
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Well, you know us Americans....always flying in the face of "official-dom". ::) Pressure canners pretty much heat up the insides of anything hot enough to make it safe if you can it long enough and under enough PSI.
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Eh? Americans can up thick soups all the time. ??? I've got several jars of "thick" soup base sitting on my shelf right now. We'll can up most anything, given the chance. :lol:
Well, that's interesting Beekissed. I thought official advice in the States was no canning thick (dense) soups because of the possibility that the stuff at the centre of the jars won't get sufficiently hot to guarantee safety.
I suppose it depends how long you keep it in the waterbath for (or at what pressure if you are pressure canning) Always worth taking advice from folk who have been successful imho :D
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You know it is very odd that people have been using the boiling water method here for over a hundred years and I have never heard anybody actually not regard this method as normal and uncomplicatedly safe... not knocking the AFDA but they take a normal everyday method to another level. I am willing to bet that any incidents of people making themselves sick is down to their lack of good preparation and knowledge of what the are doing. Of course the AFAD supply that knowledge but in doing so have to safeguard themselves and that of course make the actual process potentially hazardous because if they don't make that clear they leave themselves open to litigation.
But I have to say there are a lot of foods I just don't conserve because the product at the end is not really that appealing to me , think carrots, beans, peas and the like they come out over cooked and mushy. But soups, tomatoes, veg stews and the like are really worth doing.
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Yes, Jambop, it's all very strange. I have read absolutely masses on canning in the last few weeks. According to one source, the reason we can't buy pressure canners in Europe is because they're not approved for use by the EU on the grounds that it's impossible to absolutely guarantee the pressure inside and hence the preserved food may be unsafe to eat.
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It's impossible to guarantee ANY method...there are no guarantees in this life against growing ill and dying, nor are there guarantees that any method of food preservation will not fail at any given time under any given circumstance. We were just discussing this on another forum about someone finding bulging lids and mold growing on applesauce at her local grocery store.
Jambob, that's one reason we can corn in the BWB method...in a pressure canner it turns to tasteless mush and loses its color. Been using that method on sweet corn for almost 40 yrs now on~literally~thousands of jars and never had a spoiled jar or anyone get sick.
I think it's the government's way to discourage folks from doing their own food production and preservation, as they throw the scare tactics out more and more about the dangers of eating your own chickens and other farm animals, the dangers of feeding them kitchen scraps ::), the dangers of this or that, etc. to a populace that is ruled by fear of death. So much so that they throw practical sense out the window, just in case it no longer can keep them from death.
I agree...a normal, functioning adult using good hygiene and common sense while canning and, then later opening those jars of food, should be just fine.
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Beekissed
I don't think the AFDA are actually trying to discourage people more they are covering their own collective backsides because they are giving out information on the safe method... if someone was to use their method and then get ill there would be the inevitable law suit. So they make it sound dodgy and possible life threatening and I suppose you are right newcomers are discourage to a degree.
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I've read quite a bit on the AFDA site. They cover commercial food production as well as home preservation, so there is a lot of detailed information on the risks involved in preserving food, the bugs that pose a risk and the ways of ensuring safe processing.
It is similar to official sites from UK organisations involved in food safety. It covers every eventuality and contains a wealth of information. There have been incidences of botulism in commercially produced preserved goods both here and in the US that are documented on these sites, plus reports on incidences on botulism in home canned goods. I don't know the circumstances, so can't make a judgement on whether hygiene or lack of knowledge was the cause. Maybe it was just bad luck that a food stuff was already contaminated, looked fine, smelled fine, but made people ill.
Knowledge is power in my book, so having read the official sites and quite a bit on homesteading and food preservation sites, I can then make my own mind up.
It is the same with rules about chickens here in the UK. The official rules say feed nothing that came out of your own kitchen. This came about after poor farming practises here, where a farmer was feeding food waste to pigs, led to a massive outbreak of foot and mouth. Again, I can see the sense in the advice, but I can also use common sense when looking after my own little flock.
If you are someone who is freaked out by the chance home preserved foods may be dangerous and have no confidence that you can do this safely, it probably is best you continue to buy your food. If you have the intelligence and common sense to take on board all the information and move forward from there, all power to your waterbath (or pressure canner) :)