Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Poultry and Pets => Chicken Chat => Topic started by: mammahen on September 21, 2011, 13:44
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I received a letter yesterday from my local council saying that I have to get rid of my 5 little chickens. I have had them for 3 months now and they have not been a problem at all. I keep them clean and well fed and watered, I even talk to them like they are my babies. My neighbours dog got in and killed 1 of them about 2 weeks ago and she reported the incident herself to the council and stated that they are not a nuisance she was just concerned about her dogs killing anymore, that problem has been rectified now and we have all security measures sorted. what can I do to keep my girls as they are family pets they are rescued ex- battery and do not lay eggs, my children and nephews love feeding and playing with them as they are very tame now. Please help xxxxx >:(
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Oh dear. I can't help you I'm afraid but I do feel for you. Hope someone comes on to give you advice and you can find some way to keep them
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i don't really know how to help you but just wanted to say that i'll be thinking of you and wishing you the best.
maybe you could talk to your neighbour and ask her to withdraw her complaint after explaining you security changes?
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As far as I am aware they cannot force you to get rid of your birds - the allotment act gives you every right to keep chickens (but not cockerels) and so long as they are kept clean and have enough space I would ask them to a) come and look at your set up and b) to read the allotment act.
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Hi mammahen,
Joy is absolutely correct you have a STATUTARY RIGHT to be allowed to keep chickens which is enshrined within the Allotment Act (1950 I believe). Even though it is called the Allotment Act it has been established by judgements in prior legal cases that it also applies to backyard keepers and has precidence over any tenancy agreement or deeds.
There are some posts on here which go into the details of similar cases to yours (actually far more extreme than yours) and the law is on your side. Unfortunately councils are often ignorant of this but if you find out the details of any of the several similar cases which have been reported in the media and are referenced in these threads you should be able to write to the council and they should retract any threat. They still could claim that your chx are a public health hazzard or a public nuisance but if what you say is true they shouldn't have any case for such a claim.
All this is IRRESPECTIVE of ANY tenancy agreement you may have signed or any contract of any nature you may have signed. As this is enacted by parlement it is the law of the land and neither your council nor you can deprive you of your rights and in fact it is an offense to try to do so. In fact when you write to them you should use the words "that any threat to deprive you of your right to keep chickens is an illegal attempt to deprive you of your statutary rights under the 1950 (?) Allotment Act". Your council would have to tread very carefully in responding to that as the law is on your side here.
HF
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true, they can't make you get rid of them.
they should be issuing sanctions against your neighbour'sdog though!
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Ermmm - I don't think Mammahen mentions an allotment does she?
Mammahen - can you elaborate? Are these garden hens and you perhaps rent from the council? In which case I believe that each council will hold different regulations as to whether or not you can keep poultry.
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Ermmm - I don't think Mammahen mentions an allotment does she?
Mammahen - can you elaborate? Are these garden hens and you perhaps rent from the council? In which case I believe that each council will hold different regulations as to whether or not you can keep poultry.
But Hillfooter mentions in his message that the act has been used in legal cases involving backyard keepers so I don't think this would be aproblem.
One thing I have thought of if is if there is a clause somewhere in the deeds of the property that prevents the keeping of poultry - do you have access to the deeds Mammahen?
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Here is an extract from the Allotment Act which Hillfooter talks about.
12 Abolition of contractual restrictions on keeping hens and rabbits.E+W
(1) Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in any lease or tenancy or in any covenant, contract or undertaking relating to the use to be made of any land, it shall be lawful for the occupier of any land to keep, otherwise than by way of trade or business, hens or rabbits in any place on the land and to erect or place and maintain such buildings or structures on the land as reasonably necessary for that purpose:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall authorise any hens or rabbits to be kept in such a place or in such a manner as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance or affect the operation of any enactment.
and the link to the website www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/14/31
Good luck
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I hope I'm wrong - but Council's can be a law unto themselves. The same query came up on this web site: http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3412&start=0
and someone answered:
"As you are the tenant, then the rules would be clearly set out in the tenancy agreement. But, often, the first way to find out if there is a problem, is a knock on the door, from an Environmental Health Officer from the local council, following a complaint.
As it is a council property, then the council can advise directly on its policy. If you are in breach of the agreement, then the council is perfectly within its rights to serve notice, if you breach the agreement. I work as a Housing Law Caseworker and have seen cases like this go to court, without people having any idea of their tenancy agreement. If you are in any doubt, contact the housing officer at your council and find out. Don't wait to be served notice, if you aren't allowed to keep them."
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I hope I'm wrong - but Council's can be a law unto themselves. The same query came up on this web site: http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3412&start=0
and someone answered:
"As you are the tenant, then the rules would be clearly set out in the tenancy agreement. But, often, the first way to find out if there is a problem, is a knock on the door, from an Environmental Health Officer from the local council, following a complaint.
As it is a council property, then the council can advise directly on its policy. If you are in breach of the agreement, then the council is perfectly within its rights to serve notice, if you breach the agreement. I work as a Housing Law Caseworker and have seen cases like this go to court, without people having any idea of their tenancy agreement. If you are in any doubt, contact the housing officer at your council and find out. Don't wait to be served notice, if you aren't allowed to keep them."
I'd certainly agree that you shouldn't wait to be served notice or you would be breaking the criminal law if you ignored it whereas at present you are not breaking any law so just write as I said and let the council worry about the law. They have legal council and solicitors to inform them and they can't afford to misrepresent the law or they will be commiting a serious offense. It's not up to you to understand the complexities of the law as is suggested here.
All those who are going on about tenancy agreements and deeds are in fact irrelevant that is all contract law and Statute takes precedent. To take a modern topical example , someone who wishes to end their life cannot enter into a contract with another person allowing them to kill them. That would still be a criminal murder irrespective of a signed contract. In the same way you cannot waive your rights to consummer protection law by accepting a limited warranty. Such rights are given by the law of the land statute and you can sign as many deeds, contracts of tenancy, or agreements as you like they are not legally binding if they contravene your statutary rights.
A council cannot be seen to be denying you your statuary rights as they will themselves be committing a serious offense. That's not to say they couldn't make life difficult for example refusing to give you a tenancy agreement but they would have to be very careful how they did this and in practise I doubt they'd get away with it in a high court. They'd need to show nuisance or health reasons which were valid and not just trumped up.
I don't know who said this but I certainly wouldn't trust someone who thinks councils are "laws unto themselves" they certain are not they have to act within the law like anyone else and have less excuse for acting illegally as they have recourse to legal council so they must be squeeky clean.
HF
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It would be helpful to know what the letter said, especially what grounds they give for telling you to get rid of the chickens.
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if orionsquare comments on this treat it as fact and how it is as she will know, she is more qualified than anyone else to tell you the score. and as there is hens at risk she may feel the need to give you some advice
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if you do a search in the search box for allotment act you will find loads of advice including some from some of our members who are well versed in the law.
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here you go:-
http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=71731.0
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It would be interesting to know more about the grounds set out in their letter, Mammahen.
From this and previous threads, it sounds as though the Environmental Health people might be your first contact: if you can prove that your chickens are well kept, that you are knowledgeable about chicken care requirements, that you have taken robust measures regarding rats and so on, they would find it hard to enforce the ban on welfare grounds.
As you & the dog owner have sorted out the security aspects, it is clear evidence you are addressing any problems effectively.
Please keep us posted about how you're getting on: for yourself and because it could help others in the future.
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I received a letter yesterday from my local council saying that I have to get rid of my 5 little chickens. I have had them for 3 months now and they have not been a problem at all. I keep them clean and well fed and watered, I even talk to them like they are my babies. My neighbours dog got in and killed 1 of them about 2 weeks ago and she reported the incident herself to the council and stated that they are not a nuisance she was just concerned about her dogs killing anymore, that problem has been rectified now and we have all security measures sorted. what can I do to keep my girls as they are family pets they are rescued ex- battery and do not lay eggs, my children and nephews love feeding and playing with them as they are very tame now. Please help xxxxx >:(
If you could post the text of the letter, that would be helpful.
There are environmental health reasons why you cant keep chickens, but that has to be proven on a case by case basis.
Many councils believe their tenancy agreements can prevent you keeping chickens, they cant, as has been explained, they can no more prevent you keeping chickens than take your first born as slave. Statute Law takes precedence, and statue law says you can keep chickens on any land you own or rent.
Most likely, you just need to reply saying something like, "I believe have a statuatory right under the Allotment act to keep chickens, if I am mistaken, could you please inform me as to what act of parliament has revoked that right."
CC the Borough Solicitor, they wont have a clue what the law is, but any mention of real law will no doubt scare them into silence and leaving you alone.
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mammahen needs to prove nothing it's entirely up to the council to show grounds for banning her chickens. Since they haven't done an inspection they cannot have nuisance or health grounds and from the post it appears they are acting on the terms of a tenancy agreement or deeds or bylaw. None of these have precedent over a statute law. So the first and only response at this time should be to state her statutary rights to keep chx. and see what response that gets. Don't broaden the issue unless they do.
If they are are claiming nuisance or health grounds they would have needed to have done a prior inspection and issued a specific warning asking that you comply with specific conditions. If you fail to do so they can then demand that the chickens go but there's a lot of formal ground to cover before thay can do this. The point is mammahen should not panic rush the issue and start to provide evidence and go to a lot of trouble to provide a defence on issues which have not been asked for. Take it nice and slowly and respond only to the the specific claims and grounds they state with the very minimum of information needed to make your case. Let them make the running.
This is general advice to anyone involved in such a dispute, providing extra information doesn't help and only provides the other party with additional grounds to attack. I have had some experience with similar issues.
PS Dominic's post arrived while I sent this and I have to say I agree with his suggested approach which is along the same lines I've outlined. You should NOT anticipate their complaint by contacting the environment health officer or asking them for the tenancy conditions etc. You have excellent grounds on which to fight this complaint stick to them.
HF
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Answer the question, only the question, and nothing but the question.
Soundest legal advice I've ever been given.
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Agree but I don't think it is necessary or helpful to start posting the actual text of the letter publicly. You have enough well meaning barrackroom lawyers advising and confusing you as it is.
HF
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I should have also said don't become antagonistic or unduly combative. Make it it known that you are prepared to comply with any reasonable requests they may have which enable you to keep your birds. That then opens the door to a consensual agreement and will give them a reasonable opportunity to solve their problem without expensive recourse to law. If they say for example you mustn't keep cockerels and more than say 12 hens and will control any vermin just agree with giving more away than you need to that way they get to say they have gone something about it to any complainant. Don't give away your bargaining concessions even if you never intend to keep more than two as pets don't offer to do that. Don't give away more than you have to as you never know what you might want to do in the future and they will just ask for more.
Councils love compromises and to be seen as peace makers which in fact is the role we all want them to play so be willing to make some concessions.
HF
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Hillfooter mentioned in an earlier post "All those who are going on about tenancy agreements and deeds are in fact irrelevant that is all contract law and Statute takes precedent".
I mentioned the bit about the deeds which is something I read on this forum before I got hens which made me look at the deeds of our house. I can see know in the extract from the Allotment Act that ANHBUC posted, the sentence "Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in any lease or tenancy or in any covenant, contract or undertaking relating to the use to be made of any land, it shall be lawful for the occupier of any land to keep...." that I was wasting my time!
Good luck with this Mammahen, it looks like you have the law on your side - let us know how it progresses
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12679487
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@ mammahen, if you need any assistance, please send me a private message I will see what I can do to help you.
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@ mammahen, if you need any assistance, please send me a private message I will see what I can do to help you.
I don't think she will be able to as she has only made the one post and hasn't yet logged back on (I'm not sure of this but thought I remembered reading when I first joined that you have to have at least 10 posts before you can send a private message). Hopefully someone in the know will be able to clarify.
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pity she could have got the best advice available from orionsquare she would have been able to tell her exactly what she needs to know. oh well hopefully she can save her hens thats what counts.
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@ mammahen, if you need any assistance, please send me a private message I will see what I can do to help you.
I don't think she will be able to as she has only made the one post and hasn't yet logged back on (I'm not sure of this but thought I remembered reading when I first joined that you have to have at least 10 posts before you can send a private message). Hopefully someone in the know will be able to clarify.
There is a minimu number of posts you need to have made before you can pm though I'm not sure of the exact number, 10 sounds low unless it has changed recently. The Mods can waive this in exceptional circumstances. However it appears mammahen has not been back which as she appeared on here pleading for some help it's a shame she doesn't seem to have picked up the good advice people have already posted or acknowledged their help as well as keeping us informed on this topic which I'm sure a lot of folk will be interested in.
HF
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shame, but mamahen may have got her answer and didn't need any further assistance from us.
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The post will always be useful to other members who might find themselves in the same position. Forewarned is Forearmed and all that! ;)
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@ mammahen, if you need any assistance, please send me a private message I will see what I can do to help you.
I don't think she will be able to as she has only made the one post and hasn't yet logged back on (I'm not sure of this but thought I remembered reading when I first joined that you have to have at least 10 posts before you can send a private message). Hopefully someone in the know will be able to clarify.
I've tweaked the message system so that she will be able to contact orionsquare.
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Wasn't the Allotment Act repealed in 1973? See the amendments just below the law.
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HF has correctly answered this in the other thread. The relevant subsection has not been repealed.