[kyz1981]

Hi I have the results of PM done on one of my birds we have lost 4 recently and it turns out it was mareks. All my birds have come from the same breeder, although in two batches so not all at once and all are supposedly vaccinated. All the birds I ahve lost have been pure breeds- all my hybrids appear fine.

The full story is on another thread-http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=100536.0

This is the reply I have had from the breeder is this:



 "The mareks vaccine can be threatened if the field challenge around it is threatened. this could be due to stress or disease of some sort.
The hybrids have been vaccinated for mareks twice (they are mechanically done in belgium as we buy them as day olds)"
 

 
"Birds can only catch mareks when they are young (normally before they lay) IF there was a huge case of mareks in your area the vaccine may not protect them(or that particular vaccine may not protect them.) within your birds there have been two vaccines used. the pures were with poulvac md vac and the hybrids had Mareks respins vac. It could be the the Poulvac is not as affective in your area."


Just after any advice about things to look for and how others have managed it- as far as I know there have been no outbreaks of Mareks in my village- Just looking for any wise words from any of you who have dealt with this horrible disease before.

Thanks

[joyfull]

there are several types of Mareks but the one that yours have had is the normal one that the vaccine  helps to prevent.
Once the phial of the vaccine has been opened then it only has a very short time span before it becomes useless (I think this is less than one hour) and according to this site is best done at 4 weeks of age and then annually after that.

Hybrids are known to have a greater immunity than pure breeds but this isn't guaranteed. You really need to inform the supplier of the post mortem results as more of their flock that they have sold will be at risk.

[joyfull]

Do not add any more birds to the remaining ones as they could be carriers - either cull them (they could be mareks free or carriers - this is something you won't know) or keep them on their own for the rest of their lives.
Grumpy dad on here had the same problem a few years ago with his supposedly vaccinated birds, - he then added some more pure breeds which were supposed to be more resistant but they also died from it. He ended up with one bird left who was perfectly healthy. After a while he felt sorry for her being on her own so he took the risk and introduced some hybrids and luckily for him this worked out ok - but I stress this was lucky - you may not be so. Only you can decide if you think the risk was worth it.

[kyz1981]

Hi Thanks I have emailed the breeder and included the full PM report and this was the response I got.

we have batch numbers from all our vaccines. We do vaccinate.

You hens would have been vaccinated with different batches due to their ages.

So it is not a bad batch, if it was down to my technique, i would be shut down. Over the years i have vaccinated over 100,000 hens.

The mareks vaccine can be threatened if the field challenge around it is threatened. this could be due to stress or disease of some sort.
The hybrids have been vaccinated for mareks twice (they are mechanically done in belgium as we buy them as day olds)
 
Birds can only catch mareks when they are young (normally before they lay) IF there was a huge case of mareks in your area the vaccine may not protect them(or that particular vaccine may not protect them.) within your birds there have been two vaccines used. the pures were with poulvac md vac and the hybrids had Mareks respins vac. It could be the the Poulvac is not as affective in your area

So not much help at all- Thanks for your advice I am going to ask my vet if you can check for immunity or to see if they are carriers by taking blood not sure this is possible but I can only ask!

[kyz1981]

Thanks Joyful, Just seen your reply on the previous thread- I agree I think I am being fobbed off or not given the full picture- my next step will be to collate the information from Vials and things and if I am still fed a load of rubbish then I may consider making a claim in the small claims court or something or at least challenging them in some way- I paid over the odds for the birds as well because I wanted pure breeds that were vaccinated.

[joyfull]

he would only be closed down if Defra was informed - perhaps you should inform them to see what they have to say. Not everybody would go down the route of having a post mortem and just put it down to their own in-experience of chicken keeping.
Can you contact the vaccination manufacturers? They may be able to help you.

[kyz1981]

That's a great idea thanks- I will see if I can find the information. I will also think about reporting them to DEFRA when I have a bit more information.

When I spoke to my Vet yesterday before emailing the breeder I asked him if they could catch Mareks if they had been vaccinated- he said only if the vaccine was not administered correctly.

I was pondering last night  that if what they said is true :

Birds can only catch mareks when they are young (normally before they lay) IF there was a huge case of mareks in your area the vaccine may not protect them(or that particular vaccine may not protect them.) within your birds there have been two vaccines used. the pures were with poulvac md vac and the hybrids had Mareks respins vac. It could be the the Poulvac is not as affective in your area.

Then it would be happening much more and there would be reports all over the internet- I can't find any- and would be a disaster for poultry farms so I am finding this very very hard to believe - however the two differing vaccines would explain why none of my hybrids have ever been symptomatic- as it was done, but done properly in Belgium.

It is scary that people could have this in the flock and not know and then pass it on. Even if I did decide to cull my birds - I think the virus can remain active for a yr anyway. I am not going to cull, and If I ever decide to introduce more I will hatch them here and buy the vaccine and get my vet to administer it -I trust no-one after this.

[joyfull]

wise decision, albeit a hard one to have learnt. As I have said the vaccine needs to be administered in such a short time span from opening the vial so the breeder may have got it wrong.

[ehs284]

I know nothing about Marek's, but I would say that your vet is wrong. No vaccine (human or animal) can give 100% protection to all in all circumstances. They work by "priming" the immune system and the immune system itself varies in strength. There are also variations in the ability of a vaccine to give protection against strains of the disease (just look at the human 'flu situation year to year). Generally the effects of immunisation would range from full protection, through reduced symptoms to failed protection. As your breeder said, much depends upon the challenge and environment. Much of the value of mass immunisation lies in "herd immunity"; the idea that with a sufficiently high number of protected individuals there will not be enough contact between infectious individuals and susceptible ones.
I don't know if this helps in your quest, but I would suggest that there is one simple, if not easy, way to find out whether the breeder was at fault or whether you were unlucky. Find out where the other birds from the breeder were sent and thence find out if any other flocks had problems with Marek's. Probably you cannot do this easily, for although the breeder will have the records, s/he is unlikely to release them to you. DEFRA can require the information.

[Sassy]

I know nothing about Marek's, but I would say that your vet is wrong. No vaccine (human or animal) can give 100% protection to all in all circumstances. They work by "priming" the immune system and the immune system itself varies in strength. There are also variations in the ability of a vaccine to give protection against strains of the disease (just look at the human 'flu situation year to year). Generally the effects of immunisation would range from full protection, through reduced symptoms to failed protection. As your breeder said, much depends upon the challenge and environment. Much of the value of mass immunisation lies in "herd immunity"; the idea that with a sufficiently high number of protected individuals there will not be enough contact between infectious individuals and susceptible ones.
I don't know if this helps in your quest, but I would suggest that there is one simple, if not easy, way to find out whether the breeder was at fault or whether you were unlucky. Find out where the other birds from the breeder were sent and thence find out if any other flocks had problems with Marek's. Probably you cannot do this easily, for although the breeder will have the records, s/he is unlikely to release them to you. DEFRA can require the information.

I am also under the impression that no vaccine is 100%. It must be very difficult for you. I have also been told that Mareks, once in the system, remains there and can raise it s head at any time of stress for your chooks. And agree that you should never mix your chooks with others as they may shed the virus  so that it can be picked up by Mareks free birds.

[GrannieAnnie]

Joy is right, the live vaccines must be used up or dicarded within the hour of opening the bottles.

I decided to try vaccinating my flock about 4 years ago.  I had a lot of chicks to vaccinate, otherwise I wouldn't have tried it.  The vaccines then only came in multiples of 1000 doses, but some now are available in 500!

Not so bad as I had a couple of hundred chicks to vaccinate, but a bit pricey if you only have about 6 chickens.

But when I did vaccinate, I copied all the details down of the serial numbers, batch numbers, dates etc of the vaccines, and gave each of my customers a copy so that if needed, the vaccine could be tracked right back to source.

But some places do try to pull the wool, I know, I have had ti done to me too!!

[kyz1981]

Thanks if It was just one chicken that died I may chalk it down to poor response to vaccine but to have 4 die, the 4 that were all vaccinated at the breeders just does not feel right, so that is 4 chickens out of my flock of 10- something def up with the vaccine


I have had an email chat with my vet and he suggests the only reason he would feel for a poor response to vaccine was if it was not given correctly or if the vaccines were given to close together or the chickens were ill when they were given them. However he feels that if all the chickens were vaccinated they should have had a good herd immunity.

I am requesting Vial numbers from the Breeder and my Vet wants to talk to the breeders vet as she has informed me she is able to sell vaccines and my vet is under the impression that a vet would need to supply these so is concerned about this also.

My Vet has also informed me not to add to my flock - need to clarify if this is forever or if I could hatch and vaccinate here in the future, some research suggests the virus can live up to a yr after the last carrier infected birds, others suggest once you have had Mareks on your ground you will always have Mareks.

I am just so cross as the implications of this are massive and I feel like the breeder has no clue as to the implications of Mareks .

[jhub]

Hello and sorry to hear about your chickens.
I bought  4 pure breeds as pullets and one died from symptoms of classic Marek's despite being vaccinated. The others are fine and the breeder was really helpful and not at all defensive (as your breeder sounds)
Both my vet and breeder said that vaccination is not 100% effective especially if given to a stressed or ill bird.
Good luck in your pursuit of the truth.
Jane