Green manure headache!

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heygrow

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Green manure headache!
« on: February 18, 2017, 18:09 »
At the end of last summer I decided to sow some green manure into one section of my plot that I had finished growing in. I put in AlfaAlfa and left it to overwinter. I have just spent half a day digging it in and digging over. I was very surprised to see how long and tough the roots were. I tried to use my petrol tiller, but because of the roots combined with the clay based soil it just became a solid cement that clogged up the tiller. I had to resort to back breaking digging deep with a fork!  :(

My reason to use the green manure was to improve the soil and prevent weeds growing in empty soil, but it did neither. There were as many weeds and grass as alf alfa and the soil which does not have the alfa alfa looks better. Never again!

My concern is now that the roots and plant of the alfa alfa that I have dug in will re-grow and I will have to dig over again. Does anyone have experience of this and can advise if it will re-grow or die down now it is dug in?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 18:13 by heygrow »

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greenjay

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 19:35 »
this is what has always put me off green manures.
the principal is good, but there is no way I could dig in.
sorry I cant give any decent advice.

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Mr Rotavator

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2017, 19:58 »
I had a similar problem as I left them in too long; massive headache getting rid of them. I cover my beds in seaweed now as it is much easier. As you are not on the coast find a free supply of manure as an alternative i would suggest.

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victoria park

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2017, 20:09 »
There shouldn't be much of a  regrowth problem if they didn't flower, but it might still take a long time to rot down.

I've used green manures for years and never had problems. Wouldn't be without them, but timing is important. I do  make sure however I avoid the deep rooting sort like alfalfa and grazing rye and do the 6 to 8 week buckwheat/vetches/field beans  etc for green mass vegetation, top 6 inch structure, some root and nitrogen. Broadcast works far better for weeds than rows. A lot of people do short stints with alfalfa and dig in before the winter sets in to avoid the very problems you've had.
Breaking down hard clay pans seems a bit far fetched and I wonder if those sort of manures are more suited for larger scale mechanised farming rather than our needs. If it were me with that hard clay, I think I would go down the lasagna mulching/composting route.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 20:16 by victoria park »

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heygrow

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2017, 20:42 »
Thanks for your replies. I made the mistake of doing what it said on the packet! Which was it could over winter. I did cut it back before it flowered, so hopefully that will help.

Well you live and learn!  :blush:

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AnnieB

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 20:48 »
I never understood to attraction of a green manure, especially a grass based one. People spend lots of time digging over and removing grass from their plots, then the recommendation is sow a grass on it and dig it in once it has established itself.

I know the principle behind it just never was sure if the result was worth the final effort.

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Mum2mj

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 20:54 »
Green manure is something I always thought I should try but I'm not sure I'll bother now  :unsure:

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Florain

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 21:06 »
I use Italian rye grass and do the following.
Sow in September or earlier if empty soil. Cut down growth 2/3 times and leave it lying, cover the growth completely with black plastic in November. Cover the edges of the plastic with soil to exclude light and I use water filled milk cartons to weigh down the middle.
I uncovered a bed yesterday and just needed to lightly fork it over. Lots of worms in there and the mass of fine roots rot down to add bulk.
Works well for me. I have tried other green manures but just use this now.

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Christine

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2017, 10:00 »
I'm not an overwintering grower of green manures. I too have clay but prefer to go down the compost making and improving of the soil. heygrow, if you can gain well rotted manure or even have space to rot it down you may well find that this is just as effective and can be rotovated in more easily. Your other option is making a great big compost supply and rotovating in.

I plant green manures of the summer flowering variety under my fruit trees and compost them at the end of the season but I have a good space where nothing will grow as it's too near an aged hedge which has deep roots but where the sun goes. Covered with black plastic all items are welcome there over the year and I have an annual supply to dig in.

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Stewarty

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Re: Green manure headache!
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2017, 22:49 »
I've grown Hungarian Grazing Rye over-winter for some 12-15 years now. I have a total of 4.5 ten-pole plots, but 2.5 of those are given over to fruit in one form or another. Of the remaining 2 ten-pole plots, some 12 poles or so tend to be sown with grazing rye during the autumn. I find it tends to be about 2 inches high within 10 days of sowing, about 8 inches high and green and bushy by Christmas, when it pauses, then grows on rapidly from about now.
As I have a large-ish area, and am getting on in years and have back and knee problems, I resort to machinery rather frequently. I tend to either strim it to ground level, or mow it with a petrol hover mower, leave it for a few days, then rotavate it in. Particularly if you hover-mow it, it seems to disappear, but I figure it can't have done, the same biomass must still be there, just ground into finer particles so you can't see it so readily. And it's already done its over-winter job of reducing weeds and minimising water run-off / leaching.
Ideally you won't sow small seeds into the soil for a few weeks, as the grazing rye has an inhibitor that reduces germination until it breaks down.
Another thing I tend to do, not really recommended unless you're a sad old person like me with time on his hands and the need for soothing repetitive therapy, is allow a proportion of my grazing rye to grow on to maturity. It gets around 6 feet high, with seed heads as long as your longest finger. As I haven't yet devised a more efficient method of harvesting these, I pluck them one by one, perhaps eventually filling a big rectangular recycling box. I re-sow these in the autumn, thus saving a small amount of money, but gaining an amount of perverse satisfaction.
I also use free horse manure on other areas of my plots, but find that broadcasting a few light bags of rye seed much less wearing on my back and limbs than shifting many hundredweights of animal manure!



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