Aminopyralid?

Small Potatoes · « **on:** April 21, 2019, 07:18 »

Hi all and happy Easter,

Haven't posted for a very long time but was without a lottie for most of that time. We took on a very overgrown plot at the end of last year which I generously mulched with old horse manure (apparently years old, some lumps were present but the whole heap was sort of sweet smelling - not fresh). I started some broad beans off in modules in my conservatory (later transferred to cold greenhouse) in February and then transplanted those out onto the plot around the 10 the of march, planting through 3-4 inches of manure into the topsoil beneath. In the month and a half since then they have done very little growing and are now showing what I believe are the symptoms of aminopyralid poisoning. Spare plants kept in modules as spares are growing normally despite being neglected. No sign of aphids on any plants so I'm doubtful that it is a virus. Please can I get a second opinion before I contact dow and the guy who supplied the manure?

Thanks, SP

Small Potatoes · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2019, 07:20 »

More pics

snowdrops · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2019, 07:49 »

I�ve not seen it but it is sounding & looking like that I�m afraid. Have you read John�s excellent articles on the subject on here. If it is the good thing is you don�t appear to have dug it in so you could scrape the manure back off, not sure how the soil would be affected underneath though. In John�s articles & others I have read it advises digging or rotovating the affected areas 3 plus times to rid it of the weed killer.

Small Potatoes · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2019, 09:55 »

Thanks for the reply snowdrops

Yes I've read John's articles on the stuff - I was suspecting it when some earlier leaves were cupping so have dredged the internet for as much info on it as possible. I've already started the task of raking up as much as I can as I'm fairly sure it is aminopyralid...

I'm kind of hoping that someone on here will pop up and identify it as some kind of virus as I'm really not looking forward to explaining to my three year old why we are having to rip up everything we have planted together

jezza · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2019, 20:41 »

hello its possible its Aminopyralid the question is how has it got into the horse manure it has had to have been in grass cuttings tipped on the horse manure if the grass was fed to horses it would make them ill or kill them its a broad leaved weedkiller (nettles thistles docks)could have been grass mown from horse paddocks it is known to be found active in compost 18 months later its supposed to break down at 80degrees plus after 3 months its not inactivated in soil like glyphosate its called a residual weedkiller which is active for a while after application find out where it came from and tell the supplier jezza

Small Potatoes · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2019, 07:15 »

Thanks jezza,

I haven't found anything about aminopyralid being more toxic to horses than other livestock... but i have seen that it's not supposed to be used on pastures for horses with no further explanation so maybe that's why! Some of the posts I've seen on here and other websites suggest that the stuff can have residual activity for far longer after application than Dow and the official line would have you believe.

I will call the guy who delivered it as soon as I can get someone with first hand experience to confirm that it is highly likely to be aminopyralid - really interested to hear from someone who has had the problem and managed to successfully revive their plot.

jambop · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2019, 08:57 »

Hi I find it interesting that you say you have planted in the soil below the mulching and not into the actual mulch. So this gets me thinking what is the mode of action of aminopyralid ? It is apparently absorption through foliage and uptake by the roots. So if you planted into the soil below the substance would have to be leached from the mulch down to the roots as I doubt there would be a great deal of uptake through the foliage? This leads me to the conclusion that this manure is not as old as you think it is, and to be honest the photograph in my opinion backs, this up it does not look old to me at all. But more importantly there must have been a fair dosage of the stuff in the manure to have had the effect it has had. The herbicide must have some sort of half life. Now if the manure is as you say ages old even if there was some of the stuff present in it initially it would have degraded to some degree and from my way of thinking since relying on being washed out of the manure and down to the roots where it can enter the plant because the foliage contact is very restricted to essentially the stem contact through the mulch. It is an interesting one for sure I am not certain on it being what you think to be honest unless you have been given a batch of manure which is not what you think it is? Keep us posted BTW is there anyway you can have the ground and mulch tested? I would investigate that because if this is what you think it is your ground is now contaminated with it!

Nobbie · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2019, 20:16 »

I had this on my allotment and it looked very much like your photos. I removed all the manure from under the spuds I had planted and dug the soil over about three times that season without planting any crops except sweet corn (grasses aren't affected) by the next year plants grew normally, so don't despair.

Small Potatoes · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2019, 13:11 »

Thanks for the interest jambop - sorry - me saying that I planted through the mulch is probably a bit misleading - i dibbed through the mulch and into the topsoil but the roots were definitely in contact with both. I think that you're right about the manure - it was surprisingly dry so could have been old but not had the required moisture to break down fully? From scouting the literature it's apparent that you can see the effects of aminopyralid even when it is present at levels below what could be detected in the laboratory - the absolute test seems to be exactly what I have (unintentionally) done on my plot - plant some beans into the stuff (and also into some safe compost as a control) and observe the results!

Nobbie - it's reassuring to hear that your plot returned to normal after a single season - very encouraging - thank you!

One thing that bothers me is that, to me, it seems a bit vague as to exactly how aminopyralid works - it mimics auxin and so screws up normal growth but what are the specific targets in the plant? Does it bind to these irreversibly? Are there similar targets in higher organisms? In the environment - what does it break down into and are those toxic? The fact that it has potent physiological effects at imperceptible levels yet the specific targets are unknown worries me...

Part of me wants to give the plot up and take on another instead so that my family and I aren't guinea pigs... but according to a PDF from Dow it seems the stuff is approved for use on some food crops so we're probably all eatingit without knowing already!

jambop · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2019, 08:54 »

Quote from: Small Potatoes on April 23, 2019, 13:11

Thanks for the interest jambop - sorry - me saying that I planted through the mulch is probably a bit misleading - i dibbed through the mulch and into the topsoil but the roots were definitely in contact with both. I think that you're right about the manure - it was surprisingly dry so could have been old but not had the required moisture to break down fully? From scouting the literature it's apparent that you can see the effects of aminopyralid even when it is present at levels below what could be detected in the laboratory - the absolute test seems to be exactly what I have (unintentionally) done on my plot - plant some beans into the stuff (and also into some safe compost as a control) and observe the results!

Nobbie - it's reassuring to hear that your plot returned to normal after a single season - very encouraging - thank you!

One thing that bothers me is that, to me, it seems a bit vague as to exactly how aminopyralid works - it mimics auxin and so screws up normal growth but what are the specific targets in the plant? Does it bind to these irreversibly? Are there similar targets in higher organisms? In the environment - what does it break down into and are those toxic? The fact that it has potent physiological effects at imperceptible levels yet the specific targets are unknown worries me...

Part of me wants to give the plot up and take on another instead so that my family and I aren't guinea pigs... but according to a PDF from Dow it seems the stuff is approved for use on some food crops so we're probably all eatingit without knowing already!

I like the idea of using the manure and compost as a control test as you say it will highlight and differences between the two. I wonder about that manure you were given, how did the stuff get into it? I would have a word with the person who gave you the manure to try to find out if he knew that the stuff was in it. Did the person who gave you the manure own the land where the horses were grazing? If he did must have put the stuff down. Its is not as a blame game more to find out how it got there in the first place, he may have used it to control ragwort, which is very bad for horses, then kept them off that land for a bit then when he thought the chemicals would have been washed off re-introduced the horses and hey presto!
As to the stuff itself the USDA are fairly stringent when it comes to toxic chemicals getting into the food chain so I think it is likely to be safe to eat stuff which you eventually grow and eat... the amount of toxins around in the atmosphere in general probably are of far more importance

snowdrops · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2019, 13:52 »

Apparently the straw or bedding for horses can be treated with the weed killer & it passes on that way unbeknown to the owner of the horses. They should not knowingly pass it on for adding to gardens from what I�ve read via John on here & other sources.

jambop · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2019, 14:34 »

Quote from: snowdrops on April 24, 2019, 13:52

Apparently the straw or bedding for horses can be treated with the weed killer & it passes on that way unbeknown to the owner of the horses. They should not knowingly pass it on for adding to gardens from what I�ve read via John on here & other sources.

Never thought about that aspect of it AND ... if it is in the straw from the wheat, barley or oats it is in everything that is made from these grains ... even god forbid yer beer !

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