Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: Geoff Newsome on June 09, 2020, 17:51
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Hi. I am relatively new to allotment gardening. I am reading a great deal. I am very attracted to the "no dig" philosophy, and also soil cover with green manures. But the two seem mutually exclusive. Green manures seem fantastic for ground cover etc in winter, but then need DIGGING in spring. Any thoughts please??
Take care.
Geoff Newsome.
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Welcome to the forum :)
The theory is, that if you are covering your soil surface with a layer of compost/manure each year as recommended, then you don't need to use green manure crops.
Green manures are used by the diggers amongst us :)
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Cut down green manure in Spring, then cover with manure or other organic matter, or put cardboard down before covering with organic matter.
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Hi. I am relatively new to allotment gardening. I am reading a great deal. I am very attracted to the "no dig" philosophy, and also soil cover with green manures. But the two seem mutually exclusive. Green manures seem fantastic for ground cover etc in winter, but then need DIGGING in spring. Any thoughts please??
Take care.
Geoff Newsome.
You only need to make one visit to the youtube channel of Charles Dowding and you will find out about everything you need to know about the subject. His garden in itself is an inspiration to anybody thinking about the no dog method as a way forward. I can only say that I am using this method fully for my first time and most of the crops I have started are doing well. I lifted some super potatoes yesterday that were planted using no tools mulched up using not tools and lifted using no tools and the are faultlessly clean... best potatoes I have ever grown. There is a down side in that you do need a lot of compost of you want to have several beds. I have access to free manure and make my own compost as well as buying in compost and the cost has not been prohibitive, I think I have spent about €100 or so on compost to cover my beds which had manure and my own compost underneath.
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'29 Do I need to grow green manures?
If you have plenty of spare soil, this is an option. However in organic hardening advice, it’s sometimes presented as a necessity, and I notice how people then feel guilty if they don’t grow them. Most allotments and gardens do not have empty beds and it’s more viable to use a little extra compost and double crop for example.
There are issues with green manures: how to get rid of them, slugs accumulating underneath, and time lost in spring while they decompose. Try some methods that work for you, just don’t imagine they are simple to get rid of, except for white mustard sown early autumn, which is killed by frost. And green manures are a way of bulking up the compost heap – if you have the space!' (Charles Dowding - https://charlesdowding.co.uk/faqs/)
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I'M not part of the no dig club but as I'm about to sow some green manure on one plot to hopefully regenerate the soil but as i read slugs could accumulate under the green manure that could pose a problem?
I'm sowing white tilney mustard on the plot for the first time and as i understand i will need to plough the green manure in before it flowers but i do have some concerns about slug infestation in the green manure crop
if anyone has been growing green manure [mustard] have you had any problems with slugs in the crop
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I'M not part of the no dig club but as I'm about to sow some green manure on one plot to hopefully regenerate the soil but as i read slugs could accumulate under the green manure that could pose a problem?
I'm sowing white tilney mustard on the plot for the first time and as i understand i will need to plough the green manure in before it flowers but i do have some concerns about slug infestation in the green manure crop
if anyone has been growing green manure [mustard] have you had any problems with slugs in the crop
I have tried intersowing clover and tgrefoil with brassicas and I noticed that slugs and snails did use them as shelter. It didn't really manifest itself as more crop damage, because by the time the clover and trefoil had grown enough to act as a living mulch, the brassicas were big enough to shrug off some slug damage.
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A couple of links to the main site :)
A diary entry from John (the site owner) that might be interesting to Geoff.
https://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-diary/6132/no-dig-gardening-vs-digging/
Then an article about green manures (also by John) that could be useful.
https://www.allotment-garden.org/composts-fertilisers/green-manure-guide-to-sowing-growing-green-manure/
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I don't get the debate over dig vs no dig ... its is almost as if they are religions and one is right the other wrong :lol:
There are over riding reasons to do things, in my opinion. My reason for no did is based on the fact that at coming on 65 I am not longer interested in turning over 400sqm of heavy soil by hand... the alternative I have is a very good rotavator... which destroys the structure of the soil... and probably most important reason because my topsoil is very shallow over compacted clay subsoil flooding in my garden is a huge problem. For these reasons I have gone no dig... and it is doing well for me so far. One of the striking things I notice about my garden this year is the almost total absence of weeds ?? In a normal year I spend literally hours every week with a hoe trying to control them one would think that after ten years of cultivation the damned things would have been eradicated :lol:
In short it is horses for courses if digging is something you find pleasurable and you are fit and have a good back dig away. Me? I think I have found something that could have made my life easier years ago ... for sale MTD T450 tiller great condition ! :lol:
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Sometimes it feels almost like a heated political debate, as if dig everywhere/no digging at all, are the only parties to choose between IYSWIM.
For me, no-dig as per CD, is an expensive way to grow (at the start at least)
It is also harder on my back wheelbarrowing loads of compost or manure, than it is to dig (or in my case just gently fork over) each bed.
It's the same as the debates about using organic or non-organic products in the garden, some people get a bee in their bonnet :blush: about what others choose to do. It's pointless ::)
Everybody needs to choose and do what is best/easiest for them.... as long as it's legal :lol: :lol:
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I rather like this comment from L D Hills (author and founder of Grow Organic) many yeas ago -
We're not concerned with proving whether any of the authors whose books are bibles for each separate cult of no-digger are 'right' or 'wrong'. Our purpose is to find a blend of old and new methods that will help us garden with least and lightest work
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It is plain to see then that most people who have replied quite rightly see the wisdom in choosing the best method for their own particular situation. There is no right or wrong as to method but there is when it comes to circumstance. When it comes to the organic/BIO debate I am firmly in the " I will use what ever substance available camp" I regularly use BM for example... outlawed in the UK and endorsed by the organic wine growers crowd over here. I am not about to see my efforts wiped out because of a few grams of something when farmers are applying tonnes of the stuff!
I was interested to see the cost of a particular way of gardening applied to the debate. If you garden in the way CD does time is money and what he spends on buying compost or manure he will save one time digging the stuff in and not paying for fertilisers. Lets face it you have to add organic matter to the soil whatever way you grow, if you want healthy soil. I spent about €100 this year on compost but next year I will spend much less but the up side? I am not wasting my time constantly hoeing the soil trying to get rid of weeds... which in itself is a huge bonus for me and I am not giving myself backache digging :lol:
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yes it all about your choice of method as i said previously I'm not in the no dig club for several reasons one being cost to turn an acre of ground to a no dig method would be to costly and a lot more work
and i have to say i fully agree with what mum has said i couldn't have put it better myself but again everyone to there own one of my pet hates is being told you need to do this for what ever reason and that just makes me do just the opposite
the best thing to say is we are whatever we do we are would be gardeners trying the best way we think will give us the results dig or no dig
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Someone asks a question about the compatibility of growing green manures with non dig, and then a load of posts refer to the apparent polarization of opinions. There were no polarized opinions or religious attitudes until someone brought it up, so why bring it up? All I saw was people responding to the best of their experience. ??? :unsure:
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Jambop - what is BM?
Incidentally, I love this 'no weeds grow' stuff - if only the weeds knew :)
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BM is Bordeaux mixture.
I have done a combination of dig and no dig for years. I got my original info from reading stuff by Bob Flowerdew and articles on soil conservation and agriculture around the world. If I read something interesting, I trial it for myself and see what I think.
One reason I am not totally no dig is that I can’t compost enough to cover my whole plot and I have a large array of compost bins. Buying in a lot of mulch is costly and there is no vehicle access to my plot. I could run to the buying if I had to, but I have never felt the need. It depends what you buy as well. Composted green waste is a different matter to anything containing peat for instance.
My soil is in pretty good heart from my combined approach and you could have made bricks out of it when I started :)
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BM is Bordeaux mixture.
Thanks for that.
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Someone asks a question about the compatibility of growing green manures with non dig, and then a load of posts refer to the apparent polarization of opinions. There were no polarized opinions or religious attitudes until someone brought it up, so why bring it up? All I saw was people responding to the best of their experience. ??? :unsure:
Yes you are of course correct... the OP is totally new to the subject though it is not in anyway harmful to give a heads up on the matter. There is most definitely a polarisation on the matter... no dig that is... and certainly religion :lol:
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"One reason I am not totally no dig is that I can’t compost enough to cover my whole plot and I have a large array of compost bins. Buying in a lot of mulch is costly and there is no vehicle access to my plot. I could run to the buying if I had to, but I have never felt the need. It depends what you buy as well. Composted green waste is a different matter to anything containing peat for instance."
Compost is an issue that cannot be denied however with a 4000 sqm and living in a farming community I can get the materials I need. Incidentally having a large area of garden to look after is another very good reason not to be toiling away in the veg plot all day anytime that can be saved there can be used in other areas.
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Jambop - what is BM?
Incidentally, I love this 'no weeds grow' stuff - if only the weeds knew :)
Yes Bordeaux mixture... a godsend! The weeds? They do grow but the very few I have I plucked from the compost with ease. I have gone from hours in baking heat with a hoe trying to control them, if the soil is wet it is impossible because of the mud sticking to boots and compacting a clay soil, to a leisurely hour now and then in the evening with my fingers plucking them it is remarkable how few I have ... and next year I would expect less.
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Jambop - what is BM?
Incidentally, I love this 'no weeds grow' stuff - if only the weeds knew :)
I assumed Bordeaux Mixture?
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yep Jambot you can't beat a bit of faming material its all good stuff :D :D :D
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I too am finding the weeds are a lot lot less & that they indeed do pull out a lot easier in my 3rd year of no dig.
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My allotment is semi-nodig, I don't do any autumn or winter digging, and I cover beds with manure I collect from a nearby field whever I can. The only time I dig is to cultivate potatoes, plant out seedlings/young plants, and control my three worst weeds: bindweed, couch grass and creeping buttercup. The lockdown and exceptional weather has freed up spring evenings to work on my plot which I wouldn't normally be able to use due to commuting then having to cook an evening meal, and I have taken advantage by applying manure and controlling perennial weeds. One good thing I have noticed this year is that despite the arid weather, the condition of the soil is not bad, and is workable, despite being primarily heavy clay, so the application of manure every year is clearly having the effect of improving the soil. I understand there is a way to cultivate potatoes without digging.
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My allotment is semi-nodig, I don't do any autumn or winter digging, and I cover beds with manure I collect from a nearby field whever I can. The only time I dig is to cultivate potatoes, plant out seedlings/young plants, and control my three worst weeds: bindweed, couch grass and creeping buttercup. The lockdown and exceptional weather has freed up spring evenings to work on my plot which I wouldn't normally be able to use due to commuting then having to cook an evening meal, and I have taken advantage by applying manure and controlling perennial weeds. One good thing I have noticed this year is that despite the arid weather, the condition of the soil is not bad, and is workable, despite being primarily heavy clay, so the application of manure every year is clearly having the effect of improving the soil. I understand there is a way to cultivate potatoes without digging.
I have grown some lovely spuds this year and not a tool has been used! I had manure spread over the top of the soil and then compost over that. I then put the seed potato in at the bottom of the lot. When the tops were getting quite high I used compost about the plants to simulate earthing up, but not as much as I would have if growing normally. A few weeks after that I applied a healthy load of grass clippings as a mulch down both sides of the rows. I pulled up some the other day and got really nice potatoes about 1.5kg from a plant. I am happy enough with that, if all the spuds I planted out come up with the same yield I will get about 32kg of potatoes from a 3m x 1.5m bed and no fertiliser used at all . The grass clipping are now breaking down and a nice surprise is there does not appear to be and seed germinating from them, I was worried about that happening. When the spuds are out the bed will be getting more manure and another load of compost and the winter brassicas are going in there.