Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Poultry and Pets => Pets without Feathers => Topic started by: beesontoast on June 26, 2009, 13:20
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Hi all, my name is Phil Chandler and I had better declare a 'special interest' right up front: I would like to know more about beekeeping on allotments.
I am a director of "Friends of the Bees" - a charity being set up to protect and conserve bees in the UK and to promote more natural beekeeping practices. We have been asked to advise a local council on how best to allow beehives onto allotments, and while we have compiled some guidance notes on the subject, we would like to hear from anyone who has experience of actually keeping bees on allotments - good or bad.
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It's such a good idea we've made a new forum for "Other Livestock" and this topic kicks it off :D
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Yes smashing idea, I asked but am not allowed as someone may get stung and the society/council get sued ::)
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hello beesontoast! we are hoping to keep bees next year, just hardlandscaping a terraced area for them. Aiming to go to bee school first though. :)
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love the name beesontoast :lol: my dad won't let me keep bees as he say's they'll sting the horses, i told him i'd keep them on the other side of the farm and he said "they do fly you know" :tongue2:
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One of my allotment friends has 6 hives but he keeps them usually in orchards. I asked him about keeping them on allotments and he said the problem is take off space. The bees take off at low level and very slowly climb which means if there are people around they keep getting hit by fast, low flying bees. The bees don't sting but it does upset the people they fly in to :ohmy:
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love the name beesontoast :lol: my dad won't let me keep bees as he say's they'll sting the horses, i told him i'd keep them on the other side of the farm and he said "they do fly you know" :tongue2:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Your dad makes me laugh..hes sussed you!
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One of my allotment friends has 6 hives but he keeps them usually in orchards. I asked him about keeping them on allotments and he said the problem is take off space. The bees take off at low level and very slowly climb which means if there are people around they keep getting hit by fast, low flying bees. The bees don't sting but it does upset the people they fly in to :ohmy:
:lol: I think I read somewhere if you put up a tallish fence or similar around the hives it makes the bees fly higher ?
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:lol: I think I read somewhere if you put up a tallish fence or similar around the hives it makes the bees fly higher ?
Thanks for that Rich. I'll tell my friend next time I see him.
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We have a enviromental house in Leicester full of eco things one thing that sticks in my mind was their bee hive it was inside a 6 foot square box made of 6' fence panels with a few perspex peep holes, you can get right up to the fence and watch the bees from the safety of the "other side" and the bees fly up and over your head 8)
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I have a feeling that there are quite a few myths about bees that need to be busted!
First of all, I have yet to hear of a successful case where someone has sued a beekeeper just for being stung. There may have been such a case, and if there has, I would like to hear about it, but getting stung by bees, wasps or ants is an occasional hazard of walking around outside - you can't expect to blame somebody for it.
It is true that if you hive honeybees close to ground level - something they almost never do themselves in the natural world - their flight path can cause concern to passers-by. The answer is to build a fence around the hives, so the bees have to fly up above head height before they cross any paths.
Swarming is the other piece of bee behaviour that people seem to worry about. The fact is that when bees swarm, the only thing on their mind is finding a new home. It is very rare to be stung by swarming bees - I have put my hand inside a clustered swarm many times without getting stung.
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Yes smashing idea, I asked but am not allowed as someone may get stung and the society/council get sued ::)
How would they know if the bee was yours? would they ask it as it's in it's final death-throws :blink:
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I would love to keep bees and almost ended up with some this year kind of accidentally! Love helping my Mum with hers and looking forward to when I can fit in bee school and have my own. I am also trying to educate my friends about them as a number have expressed a lot of concern about coming to my house if I have bees! Don't want to end up a Billy-No-Mates!
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love the name beesontoast :lol: my dad won't let me keep bees as he say's they'll sting the horses, i told him i'd keep them on the other side of the farm and he said "they do fly you know" :tongue2:
One of my apiary sites has two strong hives next to a paddock with three lively horses. None of them has been stung - or if they have, they kept it quiet!
You wouldn't want horses and beehives in the same field, as horses' curiosity would undoubtedly result in conflict, but otherwise they seem to tolerate each other.
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Maybe , (may-bee) you ought to ask people on the allotment what they think and if anyone is allergic to bee stings. They may bee fine with it if you offer them some honey. I read that the best time to check the hive , (which apparently has to be done a few times a week eps at 1st to check for queen cells) is on a fine evening, this is the time when most gardeners are at work on the allotment so there maybe a risk there.
Good luck, hope you get to put a hive somewhere, we need bees!
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I read that the best time to check the hive , (which apparently has to be done a few times a week eps at 1st to check for queen cells) is on a fine evening, this is the time when most gardeners are at work on the allotment so there maybe a risk there.
Hives never need to be checked more than once per week, even in swarming season, and the best time to do it is when most of the flying bees are out foraging, which would be midday-mid afternoon on a warm, sunny day.
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sorry, just something I read in a beekeeper thing but maybe it was a bit out of date. Still, best to check with the allotment holders.
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sorry, just something I read in a beekeeper thing but maybe it was a bit out of date. Still, best to check with the allotment holders.
No need to apologise SMD66 this is a forum where ideas can openly discussed :D
And not a bad idea to ask about good manners if nothing else :)
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sorry, just something I read in a beekeeper thing but maybe it was a bit out of date. Still, best to check with the allotment holders.
It is important that beekeeping on allotments should be based on education and agreement. There are many misconceptions about bees, and I am constantly surprised how many people - even experienced gardeners - cannot tell a bumblebee from a honeybee or even a wasp. Just the other day I was called out to collect a 'swarm' that turned out to be a couple of dozen bumblebees - and by a woman who had been gardening for 30 years and who had previously provided space on her land for a beekeeper to keep hives!
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Why should experienced gardeners automatically know the difference between a honeybee and and a bumble bee?
I saw bees in a hive on my allotment site for the first time today. They arrived only yesterday. They are almost black and quite frankly look more like hornets than anything else.
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We don't seem to be getting a lot of response on the original purpose of the thread. Not many people have experience of keeping bees on allotments, which is what the thread is all about. Might it be because allotments are inappropriate places to keep bees?
Don't know the answer as I don't have an allotment but they are places where plots are in close proximity to each other. If my neighbour got a beehive I would be really worried about it.
All our local beehives are in large fields well away from habitation.
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My mum keeps her bees on the grounds of a hospice. They are not directly close (about 30m away) to where people walk or work but there was a lot of anxiety when she first requested permission to keep them there. She had a lot of help from the local beekeeping association with regards to information and education to reassure the hospice management. All the people she works there with were really supportive and facinated to hear and see this little thriving example of the cycle of life which seems to be particularly poignient for those reaching the end of theirs.
A year down the line management are bragging about their holistic organisation that is trying to combat the loss of the British Honey Bee! :D
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30m away is great, but on an allotment they could be on the plot next door. :ohmy: Literally feet away.
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What have you advised so far Bees? My site is setting up a bee keeping practise, and we have about 15%/20% of interested parties about keeping bees. Do you recommend a course? Could that be written into the lotty contract? I personally have no problems with bees on a lotty site, but it would be interesting to know what results your research had garnered, and therefore can give informed advice.
I know several beekeepers, one of which of which is Offshoots (Towneley Hall I can give you a link if you need one) and would like to compare both opinions, and if there are any differences
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30m away is great, but on an allotment they could be on the plot next door. :ohmy: Literally feet away.
That's why my friend keeps his hives on farm land Ice - fruit farms mainly. There's just not enough space to build a fence around them on the lottie to make them fly high (he says). He moves them to new locations when the pickers come in though.
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I think personally their would have to be a clause in your contract to say that you can only site hives central to the plot, we have similar clauses about sheds, tree's etc. only common sense I know, but a lot of people seem to lack it ::)
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But what if your allotment was in the centre of the plot Richie? :tongue2: Sheds and trees don't fly around and sting, sometimes fatally.
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Firstly if anyone is thinking of keeping bees join your local group.
My local group have beginners classes for £35. I can not rember what it is to join but you are covered by insurance. My local group meets once a month and this month (today the 28th of June 2009) we had a talk and a practical demo by out local Bee inspector.
There are several varieties of bees.
Italian
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\Stuart\Desktop\bblock\2009_06_28)
and British Black
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0896.jpg)
the Italian are yellow and as the name suggests the British are .....
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0880.jpg)
(http://s329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/?action-view¤t=IMG_0890.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0898.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0888.jpg)
I do not have bees but they are going to be arriving very very soon.
30m away is great, but on an allotment they could be on the plot next door. :ohmy: Literally feet away.
****Edit*** I mucked up Ice's quote.
I meant to say.....
The guys on my course (bee) that had bees on (or getting them) on an allotment, had to build a six foot fence a round there bee hive. This is because once a bee takes off it will fly horizontally -ish till it meets a object. At six feet up they is not going to a problem for you. Today at bee club one other person was stung apart from me and it was because the club was demoing a shook swarm and other things. This is not normal. Plus we where very close and it took 49 mins into the demo before the first person got stung and I was less that 8 inches from the bee hive entrance trying to get a good shot of the bees. (big style pushing my luck.)
But this was the picture I got. It shows the British black and the Italian bee.
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0914.jpg)
We as humans (well all animals have this instinct) are programmed to be afraid of bees. It is natural. But they do not want to hurt anyone.
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Our OP knows all about keeping bees. ;) The question was about keeping them on allotments. ::) :lol:
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But what if your allotment was in the centre of the plot Richie? :tongue2: Sheds and trees don't fly around and sting, sometimes fatally.
They do in very high winds ;) :lol:
But it goes back to having good manners and asking about, we live in a high risk society. I expect I have a higher chance of getting knocked off & killed on my bike on the way to work tomorrow morning than of being stung by a bee.
We can't expect bees just to live out in the country, without bees I don't think the planet would survive long. Without us humans it'll last a lot longer than with us. ;)
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Nice pics ruff :D
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I know how important bees are I'm just playing devil's advocate with the question.
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I know how important bees are I'm just playing devil's advocate with the question.
I know ;) I'm plea bargaining for the bee's :lol:
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Oh and I mucked up me quote and stuff
****Edit*** I mucked up Ice's quote.
I meant to say.....
The guys on my course (bee) that had bees on (or getting them) on an allotment, had to build a six foot fence a round there bee hive. This is because once a bee takes off it will fly horizontally -ish till it meets a object. At six feet up they is not going to a problem for you. Today at bee club one other person was stung apart from me and it was because the club was demoing a shook swarm and other things. This is not normal. Plus we where very close and it took 49 mins into the demo before the first person got stung and I was less that 8 inches from the bee hive entrance trying to get a good shot of the bees. (big style pushing my luck.)
But this was the picture I got. It shows the British black and the Italian bee.
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/Roughlee_Handled/Bees/IMG_0914.jpg)
We as humans (well all animals have this instinct) are programmed to be afraid of bees. It is natural. But they do not want to hurt anyone.
I know how important bees are I'm just playing devil's advocate with the question.
A balanced conversation is the best because other peoples questions may get answered.
:D
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Why should experienced gardeners automatically know the difference between a honeybee and and a bumble bee?
(a) because they look nothing like each other (apart from the number of legs)
(b) for the same reason you would expect a car park attendant to be able to tell the difference between a Bentley and a Mini
(c) because bees are a part of gardening in the same way that seagulls are a part of sea fishing. And I would expect a fisherman to be able to tell a gull from an albatross.
I saw bees in a hive on my allotment site for the first time today. They arrived only yesterday. They are almost black and quite frankly look more like hornets than anything else.
If they look like hornets (an inch or more long, yellow/orange heads and black and yellow bodies, I would be worried about this beekeeper...
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I thought it might be a good idea to repeat the original post as we seem to be wandering off a little bit. Not unusual here I know ::)
Hi all, my name is Phil Chandler and I had better declare a 'special interest' right up front: I would like to know more about beekeeping on allotments.
I am a director of Friends of the Bees - a charity being set up to protect and conserve bees in the UK and to promote more natural beekeeping practices. We have been asked to advise a local council on how best to allow beehives onto allotments we would like to hear from anyone who has experience of actually keeping bees on allotments - good or bad.
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I expect I have a higher chance of getting knocked off & killed on my bike on the way to work tomorrow morning than of being stung by a bee.
We can't expect bees just to live out in the country, without bees I don't think the planet would survive long. Without us humans it'll last a lot longer than with us. ;)
Exactly. Anyone can be stung by any one of a number of insects, even in the 'safety' of their own home, if they flap their arms about or accidentally nip one. A tiny number of people are anaphylactically allergic to bee stings, and probably most of them know they are, and will either carry an Epipen or ought to, or will know to call an ambulance if they are stung. Most people react to stings with localized swelling an itching, and while some of these people think they are 'allergic' to stings, they are not - it's just evidence that their immune system is working.
However, people who are not used to bees can behave oddly when they encounter one, and sometimes their behaviour leads to getting stung. And if you are a gardener, whether or not anyone keeps bees nearby, you are, from time to time, going to meet them and you just have to accept that there is always the possibility of getting stung. You can reduce that possibility substantially by learning something about bee behaviour.
Bees do not live exclusively in the country, of course. More and more people are taking up urban beekeeping, and given the general shift towards organic gardening, they are likely to prosper there rather better than in the pesticide-soaked countryside.
I know there are allotment beekeepers out there, as some councils do allow it, so I would especially like to hear from anyone with actual experience - good or bad.
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I lotty on a big site, and I know that bees need a flightpath...as I said above theres only very few plot holders who want hives. Theres (apparently needed for legal reasons) A4 laminates posted at plot gates to warn anyone that the plot holder has applied for hives.
Im site secretary Bees, but been ill so missed the AGM, but have had no emails through
So, as far as I know theres been no complaints or even queries. How/do I need to? bring up the flight path when the plots are scattered all over a huge site? Or doesnt it matter and each nest will go to their own?
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I have read that siting Bees near to Veg will increase yield significantly. If Lotties that take on bees find this to be the case I reckon it would be significant incentive to other sites and might help your cause?
I wonder if those sites taking on bees, for the first time, to monitor if allotment holders "feel" that their yield has increased?
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How/do I need to? bring up the flight path when the plots are scattered all over a huge site? Or doesnt it matter and each nest will go to their own?
Even if there was a hive on every plot, the bees would still find their way back to their own hive, so don't worry on that score.
I have read that siting Bees near to Veg will increase yield significantly. If Lotties that take on bees find this to be the case I reckon it would be significant incentive to other sites and might help your cause?
Bees close by will certainly improve the pollination of apples, pears and other top fruit, and soft fruit like strawberries, raspberries and blackberries - and beans. Of course, other factors (particularly weather) are involved when measuring variations in yield, but I have heard tell of people who have been 'converted' after seeing a significant increase in yield.
I think some of the objections - particularly those related to having masses of annoyed bees in the air during inspections - could be overcome if people were encouraged to use top bar hives rather than 'standard' framed hives. Top bar hives cause much less disturbance to bees and allow them to build honeycomb to their own design. I have used them for nearly a decade and I find that the bees are noticeably calmer and easier to handle in my TBHs than they ever were in 'Nationals'.
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Thanks Bees, Im looking forward to seeing them..theres been an application for the plot next to mine. Ive also heard about the larger yeild, so it benefits me!
How would a hive be near chickens? Is there any problems with them being on the same/next door plot?
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We have GPS to the nearest meter and bees have it to the nearest centimetre. If you move a hive 10 cm from where bee took off they will land back in the exact same postion and then think where the ells me hive gone.
No probs with chucks and bees that I have heard. Though I know if a chuck chases a bee there may be trouble. :D
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I know that bees are needed to pollinate many plants but not vital to most of the things we grow on an allotment because we eat the plant leaves, stems or roots and are not interested in allowing them to go to seed.
Of those fruit or seeds we eat peas are self fertile and actually fertilise themselves before they open; beans are also self fertile but need a bee to trigger them to do it; corn is pollinated by the wind; broad beans are pollinated by bumble bees and tomatoes are self fertile and a shake by the wind or you will set the fruit. Squashes, marrows and courgettes need pollination as they have male and female flowers. You can pollinate them by hand but it is easier to give the job to the bees.
As Phil said bees are needed for "apples, pears and other top fruit, and soft fruit like strawberries, raspberries and blackberries".
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There's quite an interesting list of how plants are pollinated by bees here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_plants_pollinated_by_bees
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As we are talking pollination I bet most people are unaware of the 10 million pounds supposedly for bees. Well its not. It is for research projects for "pollinators" bubble bees and the rest. There is a 10 million pound cap and organisations have to bid for the money. Another nicely spun PR exercise by the government :(.
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As we are talking pollination I bet most people are unaware of the 10 million pounds supposedly for bees. Well its not. It is for research projects for "pollinators" bubble bees and the rest.
Is that a problem Ruff ? Loads of things are pollinators, flies, moths, bats, bumble and solitary bees etc. They all need looking after and information gathered about them !
This is an interesting and simple to follow site about top bar bee keeping.
http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/kenya.htm
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It was reported that bees get £10 million and then you find the poor blighter's have not got a penny.
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That's not true is it Ruff ? I thought you said all pollinators are getting it :wacko:
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Well "organisations" have to bid for it. It is not given to bee groups, such as the bee inspectors, as it was stated in the press and government. Just me grumbling in a office at 28.8c.
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They best get their applications in then :)
32oC here at one point today :(
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Thanks for that Aunt Sally
I emailed my council officer today to find out how the beekeeping applications were progressing. Apparently only one bloke has put in a formal request, its been accepted (quite a while ago) and we've heard nothing else since.
Im going to catch him down there one day and see if he still interested
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"I know that bees are needed to pollinate many plants but not vital to most of the things we grow on an allotment "
I'm shocked that Bees won't improve the germination of my Parsnip seed 8)
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Do bees take off in the same direction every time or do they take off into the wind
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Do bees take off in the same direction every time or do they take off into the wind
They take off in the direction that they have been told there is food. If the hive or any other object is in the way they will fly over it and then onward.
Why do you ask?
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Just wondered if you could point them away from other plots
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When I went on my bee course the was a guy there who was allowed to have bees, but only when he had built a 6ft fence round his hive area. This was to stop the bees flying at hive opening/crotch hight to and from the hive and with the 6ft fence they fly at above "head hight" that is until they find forage (food source).
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We have just decided to have Bees on our site. The committee asked me to get in touch with a local Bee Keeper who has been great to us. He has given us a brood box to start us off and come to our site to give us siting advice. When he returns from his holidays in a week or so he will bring us one of his 8 Hives to get us started proper.
I will be the Bee Keeper and I am a complete and utter novice. Our Bee man said he will help me over the first 12 months. I intend to enrol in my local Beekeeping Association.
Our site is a council one and they are okay about us keeping the Bees. Apparently if we join our County Bee Association then part of our Subs is Third party liability Insurance.
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Yes part of you subs also covers you in case of disease. The Blackburn and East Lancs Ass insurance only covers you up to 3 hives though.
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Yes part of you subs also covers you in case of disease. The Blackburn and East Lancs Ass insurance only covers you up to 3 hives though.
Hi, new member here. I think you will find your BBKA insurance only covers you in case a distruction order is put on your Hives because of an American Foul Brood infection.
Regards Bombus
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Hi Bombus and welcome - I edited your post as the quote seemed to have gone wrong making your whole post a quote.
Thanks for your comment
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Welcome Bombus.
At the time of typing I could not remember what the disease was, thanks for pointing that out.
Here is an extract from the BBKA website about the insurance cover and can be found here.
http://www.britishbee.org.uk/insurance_cover.php (http://www.britishbee.org.uk/insurance_cover.php)
Public & Products Liability Insurance for Members
BBKA has an insurance policy that covers individual beekeepers, who are members of the BBKA (whether joining as individual members, or as registered or partner members of their local association that is in turn a member of the BBKA.
The Public Liability relates to beekeeping activities of those members noted above in the UK and has a £5,000,000 limit of liability.
A notice of cover is available for members attending farmers markets etc., where proof of cover is required.
The Public Liability insurance also covers officers of branches and associations undertaking their activities in connection with their group.
In addition the insurance covers product liability up to £5,000,000.
It also mentions the Brood Diseases Insurance through BDI Ltd
Do you have bees Bombus and where are you based?
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Yes, I do keep Bees, have done for about 16 years or so. At the moment I'm running 23 colonies. One Carniolan, few Buckfast, rest local mongrels, but all are quiet or they are requeened sharpish. At the moment I have 2 out apiaries, and the rest are kept at home in an old orchard. In the past i have moved my Bees about, but no Borage has been grown near me this year, so I have'nt bothered.
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I am just a newbie. I have one hive of British Black Bees (mongrels as there are no true Black bees). But I am part of the Black Bees in Pendle group. http://www.arthurbick.co.uk/Black_Bees/Blog/Blog.html (http://www.arthurbick.co.uk/Black_Bees/Blog/Blog.html)
One hive who are very hungry for syrup at the moment. Next year expanding (helpfully).
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Never had any dealings with "Black" bees myself, though I know a couple of BIBBA members.They seem to be a bit dissolusioned at the way BIBBA is going at the moment, but maybe the £20,000 that the Co op have donated might kick start them into better things.
Just make sure you don't over feed, and cramp the queen for laying space.
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She has two empty frames in the brood box and I have one super on. Initially I was told to put on syrup so they would draw out the comb in the super. But they are not doing this just consuming the syrup. I warning went out from my local BBKA from the North West Inspector saying that he is coming across allot of starving bees.
Do you think what I have sounds ok?
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I think you will find it's too late to get your super frames drawn out this year, unless you take them to the heather that is. Normally you need a good nectar flow to get them drawing comb.
Best just to concentrate on getting them ready to go through the winter.What varroa control are you intending to use?
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I have seen no evidence of varroa yet I have been placing my yellow board below my mesh floor two weeks ago for a week and not one. But as a precaution I was going to use Api-Guard. My problem is that I live 1.5 miles from a large amount of heather so not sure what to do yet I have to go and see my mentor soon so will ask him. Any other points of view gracefully received. I know with bee keeping you may have 5 bee-keepers on problem and 7 answers. So any answers will be processed in me nogin and may be acted on.
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You would be lucky to get ONLY 7 answers :)
If you are only 1.5 miles away from Heather there is a very strong probability that your Bees will head for it, in which case there is a good chance they will bring back varroa from other peoples Bees, so keep your eyes on them.I'm not scaremongering, this is just the way it works I'm afraid.
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Hi all, my name is Phil Chandler and I had better declare a 'special interest' right up front: I would like to know more about beekeeping on allotments.
I am a director of "Friends of the Bees" - a charity being set up to protect and conserve bees in the UK and to promote more natural beekeeping practices. We have been asked to advise a local council on how best to allow beehives onto allotments, and while we have compiled some guidance notes on the subject, we would like to hear from anyone who has experience of actually keeping bees on allotments - good or bad.
Hi Phil,
A belated reply to your original post. Been a bit busy with everything this summer to log-in a read. I keep 2 hives on my allotments at the moment and they are doing very well. 12 foot hegdes get them over the top of peoples heads and they forage very well there. Drop me a line if you want any more information regarding their siting.
Cheers, Matt