[Snoop]

I've read all kinds of stuff on rotating. It's quite hard to keep it all in mind when I don't know what I'm doing and the various writers don't seem to agree or grow the same kinds of things as me in the same quantities. So can I ask for your help?

I'm thinking of dividing my overall plot into six strips, each with several beds. One strip will be given over to raspberries, rhubarb, etc. The other five I was thinking of dividing up as basically:

1) Brassicas
2) Onions
3) Legumes and tatties (three shortish rows)
4) Cucurbitaceae (hope I spelt that right) and sweetcorn
5) Solanaceae and beets

The climate is extremely hot and dry in the summer (max. of 44ºC in shade in summer) and perishing cold in winter (minus 12ºC and lower and lots of snow). Blight is not a problem, either for toms or tatties according to the locals. Water is in short supply, so a green manure in summer is impossible and one in winter would have to be very hardy. I was hoping that the legumes would effectively serve as a green manure, but not sure if this is a realistic hope. And just in case anyone thinks I've overdone strips one and two, we eat loads of brassicas and onions. We'd be quite healthy, in fact, if it weren't for all the sausages that go with them!

I have a small greenhouse and cold frame elsewhere, as well as composting bins and spots that are not quite as cold (but still minus 9ºC) for winter caulis, autumn-sown broad beans, overwintering peas and the like.

Do you think my strip proposals are OK? Are they in the right order? Even though we have no blight, I'm trying to keep the tatties and toms apart, and I'll grow the beets on the beds occupied by the potatoes. Does this seem like a good plan? All help very gratefully received. I've learned loads from this site already and hope you won't mind me being cheeky and picking your brains.

[gillie]

At which seasons do you expect to gather a crop?  The winter sounds mostly out and a lot of people on this site discovered that crops that normally overwinter in the UK, such as broad beans and caulis, did not make it this year in weather that was a little milder than the ones you experience.

Although solanaceae (I assume you mean tomatoes and peppers) would tolerate, or even  enjoy the heat, they would require a fair amount of water as would the cucurbits.

Legumes, which do not require feeding and potatoes, which need a lot, sound like odd bedfellows to me.

What brassicas do  you want to grow, the summer cropping calabrases and cabbages? kale would probably survive the winter - if you can find it in the snow.

Sorry, that is more questions than answers!  What do the locals grow?

Cheers,

Gillie

[crh75]

I would consider growing the potatoes and tomatoes in the same bed if they will fit.  The beets would then go with the legumes nicely.  The sweet corn could also go with the legumes if you would like but, as you have it, the squashes would add good ground cover for the corn.

Regarding blight, rotation is more to prevent soil-borne pests rather than airborne ones such as blight.

Basically, as Gillie says, sort out the legume/tatties combination and look at what the locals do regarding green manure and winter/over wintering crops.

[Snoop]

Thanks for giving me your advice. Just to let you know, I've had a smallish patch on the go for the last 18 months just to get a feel for it, but am now looking to expand. We've been here three years and this is the coldest and snowiest winter yet. Some of the locals in their seventies say it's the hardest winter they've ever experienced.

I know that it seems strange given the temperatures, but in fact I have mangetout peas and Douce Provence overwintering. One lot of Douce Provence is under plastic. The others were before the last lot of snow but the cloches got absolutely flattened and the hoops broke under the weight. Even so, the peas are doing reasonably well. I have aquadulce broad beans growing, currently about six inches or so high and very bushy. They are flopped over every morning and a little bit spotted due to the frost but perk up during the day. With any luck, I might get some beans this year if the bees, earwigs and weevils leave me some.

As for the winter brassicas, I have caulis, sprouts and cabbages, as well as early purple sprouting. The onion sets I planted in the autumn are doing reasonably OK but the leeks I planted out in the summer are truly useless. I also have spinach, chard and lamb's lettuce out in the open and some winter density in a cold frame. So in fact winter, despite the dreadful conditions is quite productive. Also, I haven't really needed to water a great deal, so I'm hoping that winter will be a good time for me despite the unlikely scenario! I'm not sure why this should be, perhaps because we do get quite a few sunny spells during the daytime even though it is so cold at night.

As for the brassicas, apart from the above, so far I've grown a few cabbages and radishes for summer use. I'll be trying turnips again this year, but the first lot I grew were not very popular with my partner...

Thanks for the advice about the legumes and potatoes and beets. I read in a book that even though they are in the same family, it's advisable to try not to grow potatoes and tomatoes together. If blight is not a problem, then I guess that doesn't apply. I'll do what you suggest and keep them in the same strip.

As for the locals, I pretty much grow what they do, though so far in significantly smaller quantities. Only one of the locals has a plot in conditions like mine, though his area is slightly milder (we have a very peculiar microclimate in our valley). I take his advice by and large but add things that I grow from seed bought from the UK. Nobody green manures family vegetable plots here. It's a rabbit farm area so there is plenty of rabbit muck about for the asking. All you need is a trailer or sacks and a blocked nose!

The water I use comes from a well. We had an outrageously dry summer last year but even so the well never ran dry. We haven't had that much rain so far this autumn and winter and the well level hasn't fully recovered. I'll be cutting down on the number of squash, courgettes and melons, but still growing some.

I hadn't thought about using the squashes for ground cover for the corn. That's a great idea. Last year I just piled straw about the place, but this would be far more effective.

By and large, did you think the actual rotation pattern itself was reasonable? I guess if the toms and tatties go together, it would be possible to start with the legumes and follow them with the brassicas, then the onions, etc. That would fit in better with John's recommendations on this site.

[Salmo]

Potatoes are solanaceae the same as tomatoes and peppers.