meat from America

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2020, 20:09 »
The programme broadcast by the BBC did verge into bias in my view, but I think warnings were pretty promptly posted to warn about their agenda these days and to take what they say in some programmes with a big pinch of salt.

I don’t think people are anti-American, but there is a lot of strong feeling over the standards of treatment given to farm animals.  I wouldn’t buy feedlot meat from the USA, but then I won’t buy some UK produced products - probably ones you would not touch either if they were imported into America. It is the same with products from anywhere.   Saying you don’t agree with the methods of some meat production from a country is not the same as saying you don’t like that country or have some bias towards it.

I think we can both agree that we would rather eat less meat and know it was raised in a system we feel comfortable with, whichever side of the pond we are sitting on :)

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Aunt Sally

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2020, 22:09 »
I think chlorine washed chicken is something that the UK doesn’t want imported as this may allow poorer hygiene procedures in the production chain than we have here.

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John

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2020, 23:51 »
I think chlorine washed chicken is something that the UK doesn’t want imported as this may allow poorer hygiene procedures in the production chain than we have here.
On the other hand, I've heard it said that the US system is actually safer for poultry. The problem is extracting real information from political agendas of protectionism and anti-Brexit. Chlorine washed is such an emotive term - OMG they use a chemical!
I think we should look for a consensus of scientific opinion on food safety measures.
There is a strong argument to be made for protectionism with our farming though. I'll save you from a 2,000 word starting at the corn laws and ending up via two world wars at a butter mountain sitting in a wine lake!
First, I will say that I've had a polite warning from moderators about a thread I started that wound up verging into political issues, and a post from me that weighed in on those issues as expressed by others. This thread IMO includes some posts that verge into anti-USA bias and also against other nations. I'm asking only that rules be applied fairly.
I think you're right that we were on the edge of anti-USA bias but I do feel we've kept the thread to the heart of the matter, food production systems. The USA's sheer size enables and encourages methods that sacrifice ecology for economic benefit.
On the plus side, some of the best pioneers of regenerative and sustainable agriculture are based in the USA.


I have seen lurid footage in anti-meat production films, and have also been on such feedlots for poultry, pork, and beef production. There are bad actors in all industries, so take those films with a big grain of salt. The feedlots are not ideal, but are not as bad as the films. There is also a lot of grass-fed beef production in the USA, if UK consumers want that, convince the UK markets to buy those products, rather than corn-fed beef, fattened on feedlots. 
I think we know consumers vote with their wallet - never mind the quality, it's cheap. I go back to saying food in the UK (and most of the west) is too cheap. That's not an easy sell for the politicians...
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mumofstig

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2020, 10:01 »
I agree John, especially that modern farming is ruining the soil for future generations. It won't be appreciated but we have to regenerate our soil, and not just rely on continually adding more and more artificial fertilisers.

Perhaps we should make English Pastoral by James Rebanks compulsory reading - because it explains what has happened over the last few generations on his own farm. We can't just go back to the 'rural ideal' but we can help the soil and wildlife recover.

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Aunt Sally

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2020, 14:17 »

Chlorine washed is such an emotive term - OMG they use a chemical!

I’m not sure that is a problem.  All of the pre-packed salads we but in the supermarkets are chlorine washed.  All of out tapwater is chlorinated.  And we immerse ourselves in swimming pools full of it.

Our meat, if produced hygienicly, does not need to be chlorine washed.

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John

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2020, 18:04 »
I’m not sure that is a problem.  All of the pre-packed salads we but in the supermarkets are chlorine washed.  All of out tapwater is chlorinated.  And we immerse ourselves in swimming pools full of it.

Our meat, if produced hygienicly, does not need to be chlorine washed.
Unfortunately that's not the case. Some 75% of chicken sold is contaminated with Campylobacter according to this report
https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/news/90509/campylobacter-levels-in-british-chicken-the-results-are-in/
which is why the NHS says you shouldn't wash chicken at home prior to cooking
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/never-wash-raw-chicken/
Perhaps we would do well to chlorine wash our chickens here!  :)
Not the most cheery thing to read, sorry!



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Aunt Sally

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2020, 20:49 »
I still believe if you handle and cook your chicken properly, there is not a problem. 

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al78

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2020, 09:35 »
I think we know consumers vote with their wallet - never mind the quality, it's cheap. I go back to saying food in the UK (and most of the west) is too cheap. That's not an easy sell for the politicians...

Yes, many people look at the purchase price first, it is the same with clothes, the methods of production are out of sight out of mind, so who cares if other people and animals suffer in the process? It should be added that some people, even in the wealthy UK, live in poverty so they have to look for the cheapest because it is all they can afford, so we should try and avoid lecturing and judging from the position of a privilige of wealth.

It highlights one of the major flaws of the capitalist system, that of externalised costs. Cheap food and goods are cheap because someone else remotely is indirectly subsidising it, maybe through poor or non-existant working regulations, degradation of quality of life, or environmental destruction. The result is that people get punished in the wallet for making ethical or sustainable choices. Until externalised costs are internalilsed or the majority who can afford it add sustainability and ecology to their moral compass, nothing will change.

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John

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2020, 09:37 »
I think my point is that the USA approaches food safety / hygiene from a different direction to the EU & UK. It's possible some of their approaches are actually better than our current methods. 
Years ago (I think Queen Victoria was on the throne) I worked in a supermarket on the deli. One of the jobs was wiping the green off a side of bacon with a dilute bleach solution prior to boning and slicing. Possibly not best practice nowadays but we didn't kill any customers. Well, not many  :D

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John

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2020, 09:47 »
It highlights one of the major flaws of the capitalist system, that of externalised costs. Cheap food and goods are cheap because someone else remotely is indirectly subsidising it, maybe through poor or non-existant working regulations, degradation of quality of life, or environmental destruction. The result is that people get punished in the wallet for making ethical or sustainable choices. Until externalised costs are internalilsed or the majority who can afford it add sustainability and ecology to their moral compass, nothing will change.
I agree mainly with what you say. I've felt for some time that our economics are out of line with environmental costs and values. Quite how to put it in balance is another question, can some genius come up with the answer, please?

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CHRISDONOHUE

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2020, 22:10 »
The Panorama programme raised a number of points of concern to any UK consumer considering buying US meat: the use of unnatural food fed to fatten up beef cattle, of restraints preventing movement of pigs and the use of antibiotics to an extent greater than allowed by the EU.

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rowlandwells

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2020, 17:38 »
i couldn't agree more with what your saying Chris spot on  :)

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Subversive_plot

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2020, 19:16 »
The Panorama programme raised a number of points of concern to any UK consumer considering buying US meat: the use of unnatural food fed to fatten up beef cattle,

Easy problem to solve. Market (consumer) preferences can dictate how beef consumed in the UK is raised (including fed) before it reaches the butcher. I won't pretend to know what feeds are allowed in the UK.  I assume grass-fed beef is considered OK? Grass-fed is produced in the USA. Insist on that, and producers will comply, regardless of country of origin. Personally I don't eat beef/veal, lamb, pork, or any mammal meat (for medical reasons), but my family does, they always go for grass fed beef, and other red meat sparingly.

of restraints preventing movement of pigs

In my environmental consulting days I sometimes worked on farms, including farms that produced pigs for slaughter. Pigs were in pens, but had room to move, never restrained. There are bad actors in every field, is the footage from the worst farms?

the use of antibiotics to an extent greater than allowed by the EU

Again, easily dealt with by the UK indicating to producers in any country what will and won't be allowed in the UK market. Most likely verifiable with testing, though I'm no expert.  Consumer demands can dictate other additional quality requirements. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 20:31 by Subversive_plot »
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Re: meat from America
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2020, 19:59 »
There are plenty of pigs in pens over here as well Subversive_plot.  A lot of our pork and bacon also comes from countries that allow sows to be kept in smaller pens and for longer than we allow in the UK.   

The programme did report some potential points of concern to UK consumers, but failed to show the broader picture of how that squared up to animal welfare standards from other nations we happily buy from.  I don’t know if they went looking for trouble and picked the worse case scenarios, but their record for balanced reporting is not great.

You are spot on about consumer choice though.  If you care, you can make your choice not to buy, or buy less, if you can’t afford a lot of meat produced at a standard you are comfortable with.

If all you want is the cheapest option and there are a lot of people who can afford to not make that choice, but don’t care, then you will buy meat from America or anywhere else for that matter.
 

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John

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Re: meat from America
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2020, 00:45 »
I'm afraid there's a lot wrong with our systems in the UK and we should look to cleaning our own house before pointing fingers. You can have wholesome, ethically and environmentally sustainable food or cheap food.  You pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.



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