[BabbyAnn]

just a thought you haven't seen or got any thing near them that could be causing a fright ?

chickens can drop dead from fear

I know this has already been discussed, but I wonder if there IS a stress factor that you don't know about?

When they die they are usually lay on their sides fully stretched out.

I was looking up something else entirely different when I came across various sites such as this one  Stress needn't be a predator about (not just foxes, but what about hunting birds?), but also weather conditions (too wet, too windy, too cold, too hot) or change in the pecking order (maybe the POLs are bullied by the older hens)?

[Prod]

Well the autopsy results came back last night and it appears it is a type of Mareks disease, the visceral form, which is why it is killing only the females at or around POL and really only the autopsy could have shown it as otherwise the bird was in excellent condition. The vet said she can treat the remaining chickens so I shouldn't lose anymore (too late for my GLPF as the last one died last night)

She says I either bought in one with the infection or one that had been vaccinated but was still a carrier.  I think I can trace it back to when I bought some in the summer. I obviously cannot name him but I certainly wont be buying from him again. It is so annoying as I really look after my birds, quarantine them for 4 weeks, my coops are regularly cleaned, I use all the right disinfectants, wormers etc etc. I have calculated that, since I lost the first one, I have lost over £500 pounds worth of birds plus food/bedding/ worming &  the vet's fees. My partner is not a happy bunny.  We are going to secure the remaining birds, once vaccinated,  in an enclosure rather than let them free range as they do now, then treat the whole area with strong disinfectant & lime and hope that we have a good frost over the winter which should help as apparently Mareks can be spread by the chickens dander & can hang around for quite a while..  The farmer who owns the field next to my strip says he will 'loan' me a section of his field if I need it which is very kind of him.  I have 2 little Nankin chicks in a brooder inside the house and my partner has said they can stay there rather than move them down to the field as they are the only 2 which we are certain are OK.

I am not sure how I feel about carrying on at the moment. Having started with just a few birds for daily eggs (all of which are still alive and well) like most people I really got into it and decided to breed a few rarer chickens. My partner even let me buy an incubator, (which is how we have now got the 2 Nankins)  What really annoys me (& I guess it shouldn't really but it does) is that the guy next door  buys 12 or 15 ex bats every year at 50p each, keeps them in a tiny enclosure which he never cleans (I got a deal on some bedding and asked if he wanted some but he said he never uses any) and when they have stopped he just culls them.   I guess life's a b****h  and then you die

[Sassy]

I'm so glad you have at least identified the cause, at least you now know what action to take.

I do understand how this can upset what you have previously enjoyed. 16 months ago we got unexpectedly flooded (land only) - 4'6 in the field - Ilost my chooks, ducks and quail. It happened at night so they were shut up. There was damage to local flood protection which allowed the water in. This damage has not been repaired! So I am still without birds. the financial cost was over £2,000 as we lost other stuff. the clean up took over 6months and the knock on affect continues today. The emotional affect was bad too.

I really miss my girls and boys. You will as well if you give up. Try to chalk it up to experience and put it behind you. I' m sorry I sound patronising and that is not my intention. What would you do with time you spent with your chooks? You would really miss the eggs. I buy free range from the kerbside but they are from hybrid hens and whilst they are just as tasty the yolks are much smaller than from pure breeds. Not so much to dip my soldiers in!

That's a really kind offer from your neighbour - go for it and keep smiling.

[splash101]

I'm so relieved that the autopsy results gave you an answer at last.

Really frustrating though.

I think we all know someone like your chap next door, I certainly do  and you're right, they keep them in crappy conditions and never lose any.

[helens-hens]

As others have said it is good that least you now know what the problem was and what you are dealing with.

Re the guy next door to you, it sounds like the life he gives his exbats is only marginally better than what they were experiencing before  .

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do. You have been through an awful time - I am sure things will get better here on.

[grinling]

I'm glad you have found the reason and are able to isolate the rest of these from your others which haven't mixed. I would always keep these seperate as a precaution.
Might be worthwhile to ask on the swap shop for fertile eggs. Also look on preloved...someone has GLPF eggs for a £1 each.

[Prod]

Thanks to all for your kind words and support....  I know in my heart I will carry on and it is a hard lesson learnt.  At least the vet says I do not have to cull all my birds, that is something I really don't think I would have been able to do, it was hard enough this year having to do it to the ill ones. I have some work to do this weekend making a secure enclosure for the birds to stop them free ranging,  then I can disinfect the main field and put lime down, hopefully with some rain (which as sod's law goes we probably wont get now)  and  a hard frost over winter will kill off what ever is lying around. The vet said there was not much I could have done as, other than dead, the birds were in excellent condition and the 'normal' signs of mareks wasn't showing, only the autopsy has shown it. Touch wood, no more chickens are ill at the moment probably as I don't have any POL's left however I am waiting for the vet to call me to say what the laboratory is recommending as a vaccination. It doesn't mean I cant continue to breed or incubate  but it will probably be late spring before I do and I might have to vaccinate the chicks, but that's all for the future.  Who ever said keeping chickens was easy !!!!

[nnbreeder]

If you do vaccinate the birds they in turn will be carriers so you will need to do the entire flock. Any birds you bring in will also need to be vaccinated.

 One thought about the birds that you lost is that the disease could have been contracted almost anywhere. It could have been as simple as following in another's steps at a stop. If that person had infected droppings or soil on their shoes and then it transfered to your own it could have been spread that way.

 This is a quote from the Merck Vet Manuel.

Chickens are the most important natural host for Marek's disease virus, a highly cell-associated but readily transmitted alphaherpesvirus with lymphotropic properties of gammaherpesviruses. Quail can be naturally infected, and turkeys can be infected experimentally. However, severe clinical outbreaks of Marek's disease in commercial turkey flocks, with mortality from tumors reaching 40%–80% between 8 and 17 wk of age, were reported in France, Israel, and Germany. In some of these cases, the affected turkey flocks were raised in proximity to broilers. Turkeys are also commonly infected with turkey herpesvirus (HVT), an avirulent strain related to Marek's disease virus that is commonly used as a Marek's disease vaccine in chickens. Other birds and mammals appear to be refractory to the disease or infection.

Marek's disease is one of the most ubiquitous avian infections; it is identified in chicken flocks worldwide. Every flock, except for those maintained under strict pathogen-free conditions, is presumed to be infected. Although clinical disease is not always apparent in infected flocks, a subclinical decrease in growth rate and egg production may be economically important


 And this is about transmission of the disease.

The disease is highly contagious and readily transmitted among chickens. The virus matures into a fully infective, enveloped form in the epithelium of the feather follicle, from which it is released into the environment. It may survive for months in poultry house litter or dust. Dust or dander from infected chickens is particularly effective in transmission. Once the virus is introduced into a chicken flock, regardless of vaccination status, infection spreads quickly from bird to bird. Infected chickens continue to be carriers for long periods and act as sources of infectious virus. Shedding of infectious virus can be reduced, but not prevented, by prior vaccination. Unlike virulent strains of Marek's disease virus, which are highly contagious, turkey herpesvirus is not readily transmissible among chickens (although it is easily transmitted among turkeys, its natural host). Attenuated Marek's disease virus strains vary greatly in their transmissibility among chickens; the most highly attenuated are not transmitted. Marek's disease virus is not vertically transmitted

[barley]

Prod don't loose heart

I lost all my birds about 8 yeas ago to mareks disease

once you've had it all you birds will need to come from a fully vaccinated breeder , if you want to breed you own they will also need to be fully vaccinated on the first day of hatching ( personally I don't breed my own )

if you have any birds survive it ( I had one ) they will be a carrier for life and will reinfect any new birds you get that are not vaccinated and once you have a vaccinated flock you need to keep to that too as any unvaccinated bird will become infected

if the guy next door keeps ex batts they would come from a vaccinated flock as all commercial chicken breeders vaccinate

since loosing mine I  now operating a fully vaccinated flock I have never lost a bird to it again 

my girls are all healthy happy . free range and super egg producers and I do believe they are less prone to other illnesses brought in by wild birds

if allowed maybe we could have a thread of vaccinated breeders on here

good luck xx

[barley]

here are some stats and info Prod on mareks disease you might find it helpful


http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Poultryweb/disease/marek/marek1.htm

[Prod]

My vet has just rung me from home, how's that for service?  but she keeps chickens and hates to be beaten. She was uncertain about the labs findings so asked them to do another test on the liver. It  turns out that my chickens have been dying from HISTOMONAS which is a parasitic worm and usually transmitted from turkeys where it is particularly lethal. (I now know for sure where it came from and wish I could name names but I know I cant)  Unfortunately the normal worming that most people use i.e Flubenvet is not strong enough to kill this particular pest so I would not have known as I worm them regularly. She is arranging for me to collect something tomorrow so that I can dilute it and syringe it directly to each bird.  Whilst it is bad news it is good in that it can be treated and will not 'hang' around like Mareks and, even though I will still thoroughly disinfect everything & everywhere. It also means I can continue with my hobby, although I am not rushing into anything just yet.  My only regret is that I did not have an autopsy done on one of the first birds, not just for the money, but I have lost some beautiful birds, especially my little Maisie who was hatched naturally and was a real cutie but at least she is the one who has hopefully saved all the others.  Thank you all for your kind comments and support  I wish all people kept chickens because everyone I have met, or spoken with, has been lovely.   So  Many Thanks xxx

[joyfull]

Histomonas is also known as blackhead and for those that have never heard of it you can find out more here:-

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/blackhead/

I have always advised that chickens and turkeys should never be kept together unless you have a really good bio security set up in place although I will admit I have never seen a case of it. This also highlights the fact that you need to be careful of where you get your birds from and also who visits your birds (incase they have any contamination on their shoes etc.).

I am glad that this means you can now look forward to getting some new birds Prod, but sad for the loss of the ones you have lost.

[Sassy]

After all the bad news some good news. This is better than Mareks to deal with going forward. I'm sure you will continue successfully for many years to come. You have been very unlucky but you care deeply about your birds and are prepared to go the extra mile

[Prod]

thanks again all   I am lucky in many ways I suppose, one being that I have such a great vet and it proves that 'hunches' sometimes get the  best result.  I am not sure if I mentioned before (Ive  typed that many messages on here and to a couple people who I met because of keeping chickens and I now class as friends) but Rosie, my Vet told me that before Christmas unfortunately a local guy lost his whole flock of Turkeys literally within hours of the first one dying ( I think she said about 2500 birds) as Histomonas is generally a disease that is more prevalent in turkeys.  She had asked me where I had purchased some of my birds as, I guess she knows a lot of breeders/chicken keepers etc. so maybe she put 2&2 together and that's what gave her the hunch. If any of you remember the saga of Billie the Buff Orpington who lost his eye well the breeder I bought him and his mate Betty, who I also lost, kept chickens/ducks/turkeys/goats/rabbits you name it so I am positive that's where is started but really there is no use trying to name & shame  I am responsible for my decisions (and purchases) and so it is a hard lesson learnt.  At least I can treat the remaining birds and know that once that is done  I should be clear unlike Mareks which can hang around for years. The problem with keeping chickens is that it can (and does) become obsessive but at least I can put things on pause and take time instead of reacting instantly and I still have some lovely birds which I can pair up.    I am not a 'techie'  I don't use social networking sites, my mobile phone is the simplest you can get (as I don't get reception anyway) so I keep it in the car for emergencies  but this site has been fantastic and I sincerely thank you all, even for just reading, let alone advising, supporting and trying to help. So here's to a Happy Chicken New Year to all!!!!!!

[barley]

Prod - A sad tale indeed but thank goodness it's not mareks

I would not wish that on any chicken keeper - I was devastated when we got it , my vet was shocked too but sadly it is on the increase ,so be aware it will kill a flock if you ever get it 

I have never heard of histomonas either so thank you for the knowledge shared

I have learnt so much in my 10 years of keeping chooks  about different diseases that chickens get so really we all do quite well to keep a happy flock , it's inevitable that we will all suffer from something nasty at some stage

at least the knowledge shared here goes a long way to help us all prevent getting nasty's too often

good luck for the future