Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Poultry and Pets => Chicken Chat => Topic started by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 11:24

Title: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 11:24
After having a (heated) argument conversation with another forum member( who also loves their hens) i woundered what 'box' people put their chickens in?I know they are 'supposed' to be kept for eggs(lovely) and meat(also lovely), but am i mad in treating mine like pets? I give the same standard of care and would pay for treatment at the vets in the same way as i would for any of my other animals, and although i love getting eggs i wouldnt care if they never laid again, am in the minoritry?
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: joyfull on May 05, 2010, 11:29
my dogs have insurance cover and if there was one for chickens I would have bought that as well (although I suppose it would be difficult for a vet to tell them apart). I visit the vets with mine and always have done. I consider mine to be pets although I do sell a few eggs. If and when they stop laying then they will have a happy retirement here just like my dogs.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 11:59
. If and when they stop laying then they will have a happy retirement here just like my dogs.

See, i think you are a better owner than me, i wouldnt keep my dog after he had stopped laying :unsure: ;)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Debz on May 05, 2010, 12:01
Not sure I can answer the poll because sometimes even with a pet chicken it is just not fair to keep it alive with treatment if the quality of life is going to be really poor.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: joyfull on May 05, 2010, 12:01
my dogs like to lay on my bed  :tongue2:  :lol:
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: joyfull on May 05, 2010, 12:06
Not sure I can answer the poll because sometimes even with a pet chicken it is just not fair to keep it alive with treatment if the quality of life is going to be really poor.
Debz I would hope that if the quality of life was to be poor then none of us would keep him/her alive, but I assumed this poll meant that if treatable regardless of cost was the option  :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: poppies on May 05, 2010, 12:14
Mine are definately pets even though we breed them,how can you not see them as pets when they give you so much pleasure, I even know which hens lay the odd shaped eggs and which ones are always last to bed.

We do take our birds to the vet, oh sat in the vets surgery with a turkey hen on his lap was a sight to see -she had a grass seed in her eye, luckily she was'nt took short, but  we could'nt put her in a box because it would stress her out too much she just sat there taking it all in,

When they are no longer laying they just free range around the  fields, although a lady near us usually wants the pekins because she likes them in her garden but dose'nt want the eggs, and boy those birds are spoilt their not her pets they're her babies.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 05, 2010, 12:43
Not sure I can answer the poll because sometimes even with a pet chicken it is just not fair to keep it alive with treatment if the quality of life is going to be really poor.

Exactly the same with all pets - If the quality of life is going to be really poor they should be put to sleep.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Debz on May 05, 2010, 12:45
Debz I would hope that if the quality of life was to be poor then none of us would keep him/her alive, but I assumed this poll meant that if treatable regardless of cost was the option  :)

Then all my pets (including chickens) would be treated if their affliction was treatable.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 13:02
Hi Debz, no i didnt mean keep them alive whatever, i ment would you spend the same on them as other pets at the vets.? Its never right to leave an animal to suffer, i agree with you there ;)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Caralou on May 05, 2010, 13:07
I take them to the vets and they are pets, last month I had Bee (drake) in the vets after a choking incident and Ping (quail) in after some very nasty head pecking, both are now doing well (although Ping is looking a little ropey on her head as the new feathers push through so lots of metacam for her as it is still very sore). I too wish there could be pet insurance for them, especially my two drakes as they are so daft they manage to injure themselves all the time  ::)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 05, 2010, 13:31
One of my hens (Emily) was VERY ill about 18 months ago with a gastric problem which seemed to be related to a hormonal imbalance (she'd just come into lay).  She had to have an emergency operation and a 3 day stay in the vet's hospital to save her life.  You can imagine how much that cost.  I don't waste my money on smoking or drinking (an occasional G&T only) so I considered it a reasonable expenditure.

The vet suggested that if the problem returned when she started to lay again she could try a hormone implant - a very new treatment and not licenced for chooks - to prevent her from ovulating.  A bit like putting a hen on the pill  :lol:  Fortunately she seems well now and is laying a few eggs each week.

I would do no less for any other "pet".

Anyone who keeps hens as "Livestock" would of course just have culled her. 

But then with livestock you have to be very careful if you are selling them either live, for meat or for eggs that you only use treatments licenced for that particular species or you would be breaking the law.  Even using 'Frontline" for lice means you may not sell to anyone.

Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 14:37
Funny you should say that Aunty... ;)
Not so long ago i posted about one of my ex-batts Willow. She had egg peritonotus again. This is something that has been a bit of a reccuring problem for her and dispite treatment she was going downhill fast. Now im sure many people know that this is usually fatal, i know treated hens can plod along with an AB and metacam for sometime, but eventually the fluid build up is too much pressure on their airsacs. Well...Willow has been treated with and implant/chip called Suprelorin. Is this the same as yours Aunty?. Basically its used in male dogs to make them temporarily infertile. There has been no trials done on this yet, no-one knows what the outcome is, but Willow has been fab since. The implant is supposed to stop her laying , there for stop the peritonitus, so far so good. It was put between her shoulder blades in a similar way that a microchip is put into a dog/cat, then we put her on reduced rations and put her to bed a few hours earlier than the others to make her think it was winter and try to stop her laying till the implant started to work. It did put her into a mini moult, but she really is fine, fighting fit and no peritonitus. I have another hen, Dory going for the same thing this afternoon, but like i say, there is no trials, data etc so im not telling everyone to rush out and demand it, but im certian it saved Willow, and im hoping for the same for Dory :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: joyfull on May 05, 2010, 14:44
poor old Willow, she really has had a rough deal in life, I am so pleased that she is now fit and well. If any of mine get peritonitis I shall have to remember about these implants and get my vets to try and get some  :).
Good luck with Dory xx
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 05, 2010, 14:49
That does sound like the same thing as my vet was suggesting.  What  great advancement in treatment !  I'd be interested to know how she gets on (and Dory) so that I can tell my vet about it next time I have to go there (which won't be for a long tome I hope).
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 15:02
Thanks, like i say its early days. We had Molly done at the same time as Willow, not because she had problems as such but Molly has neuro problems due to her being crushed in the cage, she has come on leaps and bounds , and although not a regular layer, when she did it was always a softie and it knocked her about a bit for a few days, so i though 'why not'!. The chips come in packs of 2, and if it stopped her laying it had to be a bonus, and well....so far so good with her also.So both girls that have had it done are now doing brill-fingers crossed my little Dory will be running round as usual in a few days also :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 05, 2010, 15:08
Well done Dizzielizzie :D

I'd be interested to hear from some "Livestock" chicken keepers and "Breeders"  to hear what kinds of treatments they would give their birds.  I suspect the breeders would go a bit further than the livestock keepers to save a valuable bird.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 05, 2010, 15:20
it would be interesting to hear from people with other points of view, your right. Ive got nothing against people who cull, my gripe would be with people who couldnt/didnt cull, but then didnt get treatment either. Allowing any animal to suffer is wrong and cruel :(
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Casey76 on May 05, 2010, 16:05
I'm on the border between the two.

I do see my chooks as more livestock than pets, and I'm not attached to them in the same way as I am with my cats for example.

But there is a definite limit to how far I would treat before deciding to cull.  Of course I would take one of the girls to the vet if they hadcoccidiosis or mycoplasma, but I would draw the line at surgical intervention.

I don't mind them not laying and just pottering around the garden though - as i said, I'm in the middle of the two.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: poppies on May 05, 2010, 16:36
Well done Dizzielizzie :D

I'd be interested to hear from some "Livestock" chicken keepers and "Breeders"  to hear what kinds of treatments they would give their birds.  I suspect the breeders would go a bit further than the livestock keepers to save a valuable bird.

Hi I breed poultry , now to word this without sounding sarcastic some of my birds are worth a fair bit and others in money terms are not but they would get the same treatment if injured or ill, the same as if I had an old crossbreed dog or a pedigree one.

Perhaps I feel different from some breeders because it started off as a hobby that sort of kept growing, but I do know a breeder who never treats his birds just culls them at the slightest sign of illness -in case it spreads.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: francais on May 05, 2010, 19:12
I love my hens, and would try to treat "within reason". I would keep a hen even if it couldn't lay as long as it was ok health wise.

On the other hand I wouldn't pay for a serious operation / treatment on them. While I love them and would never see any harm come to them, I would have to look at it at cost of treatment vrs cost of replacing the hen.

Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 05, 2010, 20:45
So definitely not in the pet category as in cat, dog.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Nails on May 05, 2010, 21:45
Well i know i would treat my chooks, proved that by spending £103 on an amputated toe on one of my hens, and at the time we wasn't 100% sure it was a hen!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: francais on May 06, 2010, 18:51
Now this is where my lines get blured. I would treat the toe thing like you did Nails - to me that would be a within reason cost with a pretty safe outcome on the hens life being ok.  Not sure what I could say my upper limit would be on how much I would be ok with paying. It would be a case by case thing I think :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 06, 2010, 19:05
The poll has given an interesting result so far:

2/3 of the pet hen keepers would treat regardless of cost.

2/3 of the livestock keepers would automatically cull.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Kate and her Ducks on May 06, 2010, 19:54
I have to say I find it hard to pick a catagory.

My ducks are more pets than livestock and I have taken them to the vet in the past after a fox attack. In principle I would do that again as in theory it is something that could be fixed and the animal returned to normal function as with my cat. My reservations come with how little my local (urban) vets know about poultry and certainly I felt a little pressured into progressing further down a treatment path than was fair for a very severely injured animal last time when all I wanted was antibiotics to give it a chance.

Next time I will be more hesitent to go to the vet not because I do not think the animal is worth treating but because I'm not sure how much benefit it will provide. I will certainly be firmer about how far we go.

Sorry, quite rambly and didn't answer the question at all!
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Ice on May 06, 2010, 20:06
I would treat any minor problems to give them a chance but wouldn't go as far as surgery for a sick chicken.  They are pets, but I don't feel the same way about them as I did my dog.  Maybe because my dog was insured I felt that the costs wouldn't be too great.

My brother has chickens as livestock and wouldn't hesitate to cull a sick hen.  He found my attempts to help my ill chicken a bit laughable. :(
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 06, 2010, 20:21
I agree Kate, some vets do try and put pressure on you to follow a path that you dont want to go down, the times ive read that vets have advised putting a hen to sleep for something simple to treat is quite scary! But i now feel quite confident to treat quite a lot of 'problems' at home, as im sure you do, but not everyone does. There is a point that you stop treatment and let an animal go, but its different in each case and people need to decide for their own animal, the owners are the ones who know them best after all. Everyone on here knows how much you love your animals,and i know you have gone over and above to treat in the past.I think you did explain really well and i didnt think it was rambly at all :D

Ice, someone is missing out big time with the pet insurance, i would buy it for chickens, as would lots of us on here. I already have it for my dog, and i had it for my cat, but so far my chucks have cost me so much more than any of my other animals...yep, id buy insurance ;)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Hawkins on May 06, 2010, 20:57
Im definately a Chicken is a pet girl. The vets know me by my voice now and always asks how one of the chickens are when I take another. It took me a while mind to find a good poultry vet so now feel a lot more confident taking them in.

Id be interested in how Lizzies chickens get on with the implants as most of my ex-bats are ornamental nowand  I often think they look a bit down when they squeeze out the odd egg, so would be very interestedin the implant if it gave them a better life without laying.

Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Ice on May 06, 2010, 21:19
I would buy insurance too.  :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Hawkins on May 06, 2010, 21:32
Id buy insurance as well whos going to start it and can I pay in eggs.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 06, 2010, 21:37
I would buy insurance too.  :)

Maybe we should start our own company, Ice.....millions are waiting to be made im sure :D

Em my girls are doing well so far, Dory was on her back in the dust bath today having a fab time :D, the swelling is still there, but no-where near what was there yesterday...we'll just have to wait and see the longer term outlook :)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 06, 2010, 21:39
Id buy insurance as well whos going to start it and can I pay in eggs.

NO NO NO NO NO ...ive got eggs coming out my ears....now if you want to pay in tubs of ben and jerry's im sure we can come to some arrangement :D
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: GrannieAnnie on May 06, 2010, 21:41
Like some of the others have said, our chickens are livestock, but if one has a problem, I will try to treat it and get it sorted as long as it doesn't cost too much.

But I couldn't pay say £50 getting a chicken better that I'm going to sell for £7.  However, I do have my favourites, like Rocky, and if it was one of the breeding chickens, that I hope to raise more lovely chicks from then that's different.  But I couldn't pay out loads of money to keep it alive if it didn't have a good quality of life.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 06, 2010, 21:45
I agree Grannie, quality before quanity everytime ;)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: GrannieAnnie on May 06, 2010, 22:36
That's what I keep telling Brian!   Talking about chickens of course!!!    :D :D :D
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 06, 2010, 22:47
You're naughty you are! :ohmy: :D
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: GrannieAnnie on May 07, 2010, 14:22
oo me???   :blink: :wacko: ::) :wub:
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 07, 2010, 14:34
Naughty but nice lovely
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Chablis Dog on May 07, 2010, 16:45
This is a difficult one for me, and so far I haven't had to grapple with the problem practically, so it remains to be seen.   I think of my hens as pets but if I tried taking one to the vet, he would probably have me certified or think I had bought him dinner.  They were bad enough when my Deerhound was in the vets for four days last year.  I turned up with all his (large) bedding, insisted that he was housed in a stable and not the tiny cage they were trying to squash him into and then when they clapped eyes on the Nature Diet that I feed him on, I thought they were going to explode, or have it with some chips for their tea!  However I am learning to cope with being regarded as barking mad English and my French vet is learning to respect our animal centred ways.  Asking him to look at a chook though would really be pushing my luck!!!
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 07, 2010, 16:48
Tell him it's a special breed of parrot  :lol:
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 07, 2010, 17:29
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: karlooben on May 07, 2010, 19:55
Chickens no matter how you keep them wether its in a massive barn or in the back garden are classed as livestock as they are there within our food chain to produce us food wether its as eggs or meat .

p.s although i class my girls as livestock animals i do treat them with respect an kindness but i draw the line at spending ex amount of money on them when probably 90 per cent of the time they will die from the illness anyway .

Edited by Aunty as it made no sense ::)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: cheriton on May 07, 2010, 20:22
my dogs like to lay on my bed  :tongue2:  :lol:

I try not to wake my dog when i get into bed and perch on the edge lol
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: cheriton on May 07, 2010, 20:32
Definately pets and I would get then treatment for minor problems - but would I pay £200 plus for minor injuries as I have done with one of my parrots??? I will look into insurance as my other pets luckily all have it.
An acquaintance of mine used to be a chicken farmer and finds me quite funny in the way I am with the chucks  :wacko:- he would definately dispatch them!!
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: GrannieAnnie on May 07, 2010, 21:31
Chickens may be CLASSED as livestock officially Looby, but remember, to many of our members they are much loved members of the family, so are thought of as PETS, and are treated as such.

I couldn't and wouldn't spend the amount of money on a chicken as say Lizzie and Aunt Sally have, but they love their birds and surely it is up to them what they do?
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 07, 2010, 21:39
Ain't that true Grannie.

One of my hens has cost us £300 today  :ohmy:

OH went to the vets to collect some special feed for her because she's pooly.  On the way home he put petrol in the car - it's a diesel.  Luckily he didn't drive it  or it could have needed a new engine, it was just £200 to drain the tank, plus the price of a tank full of wasted fuel plus a tank full of fresh deisel.

There's more than just vets bill when you have pet hens  ::)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: GrannieAnnie on May 07, 2010, 21:44
Oh Aunty, poor Worzel, I hope you didn't make his life hell??

A syphon tube would have been cheaper!!   :D :D
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: dizzylizzie on May 07, 2010, 21:51
oh no! i did that....i put petrol in a diesel van the day before we were driving to france in it...i was not popular i can tell you :unsure:.....im sure it drove better after that though :D. is the car ok ?
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 07, 2010, 21:51
Anti siphon tank, and there's a complex pump and recirculating system to pre warm the fuel which has to be drained too.
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: Aunt Sally on May 07, 2010, 21:53
is the car ok ?

I certainly hope so or it will be thousands for the chooks treatment rather than hundreds   :ohmy:

Turnip for a head that Worzel  ::)
Title: Re: pets or livestock?
Post by: joyfull on May 07, 2010, 22:17
I used to run a petrol station and 9 times out of 10 it was men who did this  ;) :lol: