Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: meriad on September 19, 2018, 13:20
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And another question(s) from me.. sorry!
Am I right in assuming that you would not use green manure if you're looking to take the 'no-dig' approach to gardening? I have 10 small raised beds (1x2m each) on the allotment at the moment (more to be done as and when I can) and am not sure if I should go no-dig for some or all and green manure for others.
And am I right in thinking I shouldn't use green manure if I'm looking to plant beans and rather use a no-dig method for those beds? But a good idea to use green manure for beds that had beans / peas this year?
thanks!
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I've never used green manure (presume you mean plants) but would assume they should be dug in rather than just left. Others on here will know more. BTW - don't apologise for asking questions as that's what we're here for.
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You could grow something like Phacelia or Mustard (don't use mustard for next year's Brassica beds though), which are often killed by winter frost anyway. If any top-growth remains in Spring, strim it and add to your compost bins. The roots will add benefit to the soil, without any need to dig :)
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Some green manure needs digging in so not ideal for no dig, although you can just strimmer some down & use it as useful additions for the compost bins. I’d thoroughly recommend no dig, I’ve converted the whole of my full allotment to it this year & wont be changing back. The garden also got the same treatment in some areas & the rest will be converted over the winter. Frees up loads of time for planting & sowing
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thank you all.... all taken on board. I'm quite keen on the no-dig idea so will give things a think :D
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i'm not really into the no dig gardening but I'm interested to know more about green manure because I've been told there are many benefits for using green manure to improve the soil in both razed beds and open ground
as i understand you need to turn or dig in in the green manure before it goes to seed to get the best results because we always use farm manure on a rotation basis i have to hold my hands up to knowing litle about when is the best time to sow green manure and what to plant after digging or turning it in the ground so more info from those who use green manure would be most welcome
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I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has used green manure
I bought two packs of it when I was at Wyevale the other day (they had the 50p per pack of seed sale on) with the thought of giving it a go and doing some beds no-dig and others with the green manure.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/Profile?pid=373#section-2 has some advice and there's more on the internet, but as said - personal feedback from others would be great to have
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I use rye grass as a green manure as it's roots drill deep into hard soil and it releases an enzyme that inhibits weed seed germination. It also doesn't belong to any of the traditional crop family groups so you don't have to consider it as part of the crop rotation. I personally dont dig it in as it's really tough work, so I just chop and drop and leave it as a mulch until I need to plant out, where I clear it away and compost.
It's worth noting though that it needs to be chopped off at least a month before any direct sown crops to stop the rye grass from preventing germination of your own seeds!
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I've just sown 50p seed sale phacalia and I have used that one before. Its warm enough to get it going, but as MoS says, is usually killed over the winter. I have used rye in the past and would agree with Plotty's comments on that one.
My soil gets dug every year and I use compost, green manure and mulches over different areas each time. My heavy clay is now much improved and turns over really well. On our site a few have tried no-dig, but to honest, not done it well. Done properly (and it does take research, commitment and work) it may be a different story. Suffice to say, they disappeared fairly quickly and left the mother of all messes for the next plot holder to clear.
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In theory I'm a great fan of no-dig, have read lots of Charles Dowding's stuff and watched his videos, as well as lots of American evangelical 'back to Eden' material. In practice, though, I'm a bit of a prisoner of my own habits, I own a rotovator and a Mantis, and I'm deterred by the effort of obtaining and transporting large quantities of mulch material.
As an example of my foolishness - this summer a long-term allotment neighbour finally bowed to serious illness, and gave up his plot. He bequeathed me his large, aged compost heap. With my son who was visiting from France I spent 3 hot afternoons digging out and barrowing the compost some 100 yards to my plots, where we spread it on 2 previously rotovated areas, totalling some 80 square yards.
One part of me said, fine, leave it over winter as no dig beds. I rather wish I'd had the faith and done that. But some not entirely rational impulse made me rotovate it in, rake it level, and sow with a mixture of rye grass and vetch. which has now germinated and is about 4 inches high, despite the dry weather.
I'd welcome comments as to whether I've just been indulging in massive waste of effort and resources...
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i seem to follow you Stewarty in many ways small rotovator [mantis] razed beds larger [Viking] rotovator open garden and all our spent compost goes dawn the allotments for the razed beds along with horse manure
so back to green manure after many interesting and informative replies I'm going to grow more green manure next year I bought 500G of green manure general mix 2yrs ago and several 50p packets of buckwheat from Wyevale the other day that i understand needs to be sown August to October
it sounds like a good idea to strim the green manure down before turning it in the ground :unsure: as for sowing seed mark out the plot and broadcast the seed alternatively i could borrow my farmer friends slug spreader suggested sowing for general mix [3 gram/sqm] and i note your reply Mum regarding mustard and brassicas
thanks all for that info much appreciated :)
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I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has used green manure
I bought two packs of it when I was at Wyevale the other day (they had the 50p per pack of seed sale on) with the thought of giving it a go and doing some beds no-dig and others with the green manure.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/Profile?pid=373#section-2 has some advice and there's more on the internet, but as said - personal feedback from others would be great to have
I've used it a few times and I can't say I've noticed any tangible benefit. I have used the overwinter varieties such ass field beans, tares and grazing rye. Contrary to what some people claim it doesn't stop the weeds growing. I have sown in on the assumption that it will keep the soil covered over winter but even here, it is patchy, when sown in September it just doesn't have enough time to get big enough to act as decent protection for the soil, and I find it tends to put on a growth spurt in early Spring, then becomes a pain in the neck to dig in, especially when it refuses to die and you are waiting to sow seeds direct. My soil texture seems to be improving more as I add significant amounts of horse manure ever year. The other problem with an overwintering green manure (or mulching with fallen leaves) is that it becomes a haven for slugs. I am going to try just the manure application this year.
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I'd welcome comments as to whether I've just been indulging in massive waste of effort and resources...
I would never describe soil prep like that as a waste of effort and resources. An aged compost heap was a generous gift and needed to be treated with due care and attention. You have made great use of it, plus got a green manure crop in as well to further improve soil structure.
It is sad your plot neighbour has had to give up, but I bet he would be thrilled with your work. Treat him to a few homegrown goodies next year - they are bound to be great after all that good stuff going into the soil :)
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I must confess I am a bit confused by the conflicting views on using Green Manure over winter !!
So to be clear , no green manure eg Mustard seeds for next years Legumes or Brassicas ?
Better cover the ground with black sheets /
Thanks
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I must confess I am a bit confused by the conflicting views on using Green Manure over winter !!
So to be clear , no green manure eg Mustard seeds for next years Legumes or Brassicas ?
Better cover the ground with black sheets /
Thanks
Different green manures belong to different plant groups, just like your edible crops. It does take some planning and research but it's pretty easy to rotate the green manures just like your normal crops.
Each to their own of course but I'd much rather have something in the ground cultivating the soil rather than hiding it under plastic!
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I must confess I am a bit confused by the conflicting views on using Green Manure over winter !!
So to be clear , no green manure eg Mustard seeds for next years Legumes or Brassicas ?
Better cover the ground with black sheets /
Thanks
Mustard is a member of the brassica family, so a) don't use it at all if you have clubroot problems; and b) include it as a brassica in your rotation planning. Hence not using it in the same year as your other brassicas
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Each to their own of course but I'd much rather have something in the ground cultivating the soil rather than hiding it under plastic!
I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
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I've been using grazing rye as an over-winter green manure for over 20 years now, latterly in a mix with winter tares / vetch. As a sign of being a harmless old gentleman with too much time on his hands, I will often leave a fringe to grow on to full height, some 6 feet or so, with seed heads as long as your longest finger. Then in July or August collect the seed heads (one at a time) into a large box or bag, then re-sow them on to bare ground in early autumn, just by rubbing the whole head through my gloved hands. Financially not a cost-effective way of spending one's time, but therapeutic on a fine warm afternoon, and curiously satisfying.
I find they germinate rapidly, being about 4 inches high in a week or 10 days. Then the rye forms a thick green blanket some 8-10 inches high by November, when it pauses, before growing rapidly in March / April. As I tend to do rather large blocks of green manure over the 4 plots I work, and as my old back can't stand too much digging, I tend then to either strim or hover-mow most of it, except for the fringes I leave to grow for seed. Then, as soon as the ground is suitably dry, I rotovate it in. It's only been in the last few years that I've known about the inhibiting effect it has on the growth of other seeds, but I find it's possible to plant seedlings in that ground almost straight away - but leave 2-3 weeks before sowing seeds.
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I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
Can I just point out that proper, woven weed control fabrics do allow water to soak into the soil.
My brassica bed, once covered with Yuzet woven fabric in autumn stays that way 'til the crop is cleared. It was the only bed that needed very little watering during this summer, as it stopped quite a bit of the moisture from evaporating off, unlike the uncovered beds.
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I know I could put this on the frugal forum or start a new thread (mods please move if you decide it’s better elsewhere) but since this is about green manures I thought I’d offer my out of date green manures to any one that wants to give them a whirl( I’m now fully no dig & never did get round to sowing any beforehand)
So I’ve got..... sow by dates in brackets
Kings grazing rye- Motto,(09)
Kings buckwheat(open so maybe I tried) (09)
Suffolk Herbs Trefoil (12)
“. “ Buckwheat (12)
Thompson & Morgan mix (11)
Message me & I’ll post out this week
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I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
Can I just point out that proper, woven weed control fabrics do allow water to soak into the soil.
Or even cardboard, which bike shops regularly throw out.
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I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
Can I just point out that proper, woven weed control fabrics do allow water to soak into the soil.
Or even cardboard, which bike shops regularly throw out.
I'm on board with both of those suggestions over plastic. I just personally like something growing in my beds for as much of the year as possible, it keeps the soil healthy.
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I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
Can I just point out that proper, woven weed control fabrics do allow water to soak into the soil.
Or even cardboard, which bike shops regularly throw out.
I'm on board with both of those suggestions over plastic. I just personally like something growing in my beds for as much of the year as possible, it keeps the soil healthy.
Yes, I appreciate the idea of keeping the soil covered with something growing. I have to be a bit careful on my plot. I have found green manures become a slug hotel over winter, although covering with weed suppressant isn't a lot better in that regard. Maybe covering with compost/manure is best, but the problem is getting hold of enough and transporting it.
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I completely agree with this. We have just had one of the driest summers on record. To now cover your soil with something that prevents the winter rains from soaking in would be just asking for trouble.
And there we are back to no dig, covering the ground with a good layer of well rotted mulch is what is recommended, cuts down on slug havens too. I agree that getting enough can be the issue.
Can I just point out that proper, woven weed control fabrics do allow water to soak into the soil.
Or even cardboard, which bike shops regularly throw out.
I'm on board with both of those suggestions over plastic. I just personally like something growing in my beds for as much of the year as possible, it keeps the soil healthy.
Yes, I appreciate the idea of keeping the soil covered with something growing. I have to be a bit careful on my plot. I have found green manures become a slug hotel over winter, although covering with weed suppressant isn't a lot better in that regard. Maybe covering with compost/manure is best, but the problem is getting hold of enough and transporting it.
But if the once only thick layer is applied it only needs an annual top up.
Edit to clarify quotes
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A few years ago I tried a green manure. I was shocked at the price of the seed packets in our local garden centre, so took a walk and collected my own legume mix of dried heads from white clover, black medick and a few vetch pods. I broke them up, and threw them over the bed. It all grew well, and in Spring I dug it in. I didn't see any noticeable difference from doing it, and the clover attracted pigeons into the garden to graze on it, so I didn't bother doing it again.
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A few years ago I tried a green manure. I was shocked at the price of the seed packets in our local garden centre, so took a walk and collected my own legume mix of dried heads from white clover, black medick and a few vetch pods. I broke them up, and threw them over the bed. It all grew well, and in Spring I dug it in. I didn't see any noticeable difference from doing it, and the clover attracted pigeons into the garden to graze on it, so I didn't bother doing it again.
It really depends on your soil type I guess. Mine's so heavy that the winter rains just compact it and leaves me no choice but to give it another dig in the spring. At least with a cover crop in place the compaction is limited, getting me a little nearer to no dig.
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Mustard used as a green manure is best on a potato bed. It is also a fumigant. When you cut it down in the spring it releases a gas which fumigates the soil, you must dig it in within 10 mins of cutting it down so best to do small areas at a time. It also helps to eradicate wireworm which is why it is good for your potato beds.
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That’s really interesting fatcat, as it happens I had mustard on the patch I grew my potatoes and have had the best ever crop of king Edwards this year. Supermarket size they were, unlike the walnut sized tubers I have usually had. I didn’t know about mustard and spuds when I was doing it so maybe just a happy “accident”.
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Mustard used as a green manure is best on a potato bed. It is also a fumigant. When you cut it down in the spring it releases a gas which fumigates the soil, you must dig it in within 10 mins of cutting it down so best to do small areas at a time. It also helps to eradicate wireworm which is why it is good for your potato beds.
One of my plot neighbours tried this for this year. His spuds where he'd grown the mustard were free of wireworm damage but those elsewhere (as well as all of us around him) suffered.