[pookey]

i wanted to start a veg patch and i was planning to use a field i have that has been neglected for quite some time and has had cattle + horses grazing for the last 2 years (not my animals)!  but when i went out on the field it has hardly any top soil and is heavy clay - waterlogged and sticky.  I had to wrestle with every step to keep my wellies on!  the ground is uneven and we have a very large rainfall - waterlogging is a common problem.  I was considering building some beds on the concrete and seeing how the feild is in a couple of months.  How high would beds on concrete need to be?  I want to grow spuds, salad, strawberries, corn, carrots + parsnips, onion + garlic.

I have another option available, my garden is sloped and has more topsoil and is much less waterlogged - its also neglected and isbumpy with grass + weeds - not been mowed much.  I was also considering the option of spraying an area with weedol and making some beds on the top here???

I have a 2 year old + 4 month old so preperation time is limited as my husband works or is away most days and I always have the rugrats with me.

i have just put up an 8x6 small greenhouse and have had my spuds chitting for 6 weeks or so.

all help appreciated - im clueless!!

i

[Salkeela]

Clay despite it's drawbacks is fairly fertile... so a better option might be raised beds on the clay than on the concrete.

Pots on concrete are another matter as you can move these.  

There have been various threads recently about starting new ground.  Search for 'permaculture' for some of the no-dig ideas.

Good luck.  (And a great way to get your littlies outside - I used to have a big old second hand high pram for the baby -warm and weather proof!)

Ps And despite what you might think, there will be some top soil where animals have been grazing.  Although digging such compacted land may be interesting!

[richyrich7]

I have two beds at home sitting on concrete, they are 8'x3' and about 12" deep with 8" of multi purpose growing medium x soil mix every year I add the contents of the compost bin to them. I have successfully grown carrots, potatoes, salad crops, beetroot,peas, herbs annual flowers etc in them, for the last three years. So you can grow most things, but be prepared for lots of watering. Think you might struggle with long rooted parsnips but apart from that no worries. So I would give it a go.
If you spray anything with weedol you will only kill the leaves, you need roundup or an equivalent weeedkiller for any perennial weeds.
Hope this helps.

[WG.]

Hi Pookey

Raised beds on concrete would be expensive on a big scale and would prevent any moisture rising from underneath - they'd need a lot of watering even in Fermanagh.  Your garden certainly sounds like a better bet.  Even here, you might want to forget about parsnip and carrot for this year.

Do you own or rent?  Reason I ask is that the field might benefit from drainage (expensive).  Consult an expert - ideally the last person to farm it.  A golf greenkeeper also knows a bit about drainage.

Can I suggest comfrey for the paddock.  Comfrey will do really well on clay and will drive down roots which will help the soil structure to some depth.   The theory here is that you cut & carry off the comfrey to drastically improve fertility in your garden.  You can run chooks among the growing comfrey to keep it weeded and fertilised.

[richyrich7]

 You can run chooks among the growing comfrey to keep it weeded and fertilised.

I thought comfrey was poisonous for hens ? mine where certainly very bad for days after eating it last time they got near one of mine.

[WG.]

I missed something fairly obvious in your posting.   If they were grazing horses/cattle on your paddock then it is clearly capable of growing grass in goodly quantities.  Doesn't alter my comfrey suggestion but does indicate that the soil may be better than you think.

[WG.]

I thought comfrey was poisonous for hens ? mine where certainly very bad for days after eating it last time they got near one of mine.

I don't keep chickens but I quote the great man himself, Lawrence D Hills, "Bocking 14 is unpopular with chickens unless it is wilted and chaffed so, provided they are not starved of green food, they will eat the weeds between the rows rather than the plants".

I await other's experiences.

[richyrich7]

To be honest the ground has probably just compacted and formed a "pan" through which the water can't drain, can you get some one to deep plough it and see how it goes from there. Heavy clay will benefit from a good dressing of lime this helps to bind the small clay particles together, plenty of organic material dug in will also help you may want to consider growing a green manure to dig in.

[Annie]

I suspect that you may be best off starting with a couple of beds in the garden as you can contain the little people more easily.If you put beds across the slope then you end up with a terraced effect.Everywhere is very wet at the moment but I have found that the main thing about clay is that things grow once they get their roots down.Maybe potatoes in the field and other veg in the garden

[pookey]

Do you own or rent?  Reason I ask is that the field might benefit from drainage (expensive).  Consult an expert - ideally the last person to farm it.  A golf greenkeeper also knows a bit about drainage.

[.

Hi whisky, we own.  The person who last owned the land moved to scotland somewhere (I'm in Northern Ireland) so I cant speak to them but I know drainage is a problem as our neighbours suffer from similar problems.  I cant afford to add drainage, I looked into the underground pipes on gravel method but it would cost too much.  I'll have to try and work with what I've got!

[pookey]

, can you get some one to deep plough it and see how it goes from there. Heavy clay will benefit from a good dressing of lime this helps to bind the small clay particles together, plenty of organic material dug in will also help you may want to consider growing a green manure to dig in.

thanks - would ploughing mean I could pant straight away?  I live next door to a cattle farmer - I'm sure he'd know someone with a plough.  would it just level the ground or would it give me a reasonable texture?

[WG.]

I know drainage is a problem as our neighbours suffer from similar problems.  I cant afford to add drainage, I looked into the underground pipes on gravel method but it would cost too much.  I'll have to try and work with what I've got!

Are you comfortable with the comfrey idea then?   With or without the chooks.  Despite what you may have heard, comfrey is pretty easy to kill off when you are ready to extend your veggie plot into the paddock.  (Simply put under a polythene or Teram mulch for a whole season).

[richyrich7]

I'd have a chat with the farmer, I think ploughing would just break up your ground, think farmers have a rotavator that goes on the back of the tractor that would give you a better finish. If you sprayed off the grass first with roundup you probably could plant this year with some later sowing stuff.
Just how big a field have you got ? I'm assuming that your not thinking of using all of it in the first year ?

[Trillium]

Perhaps your neighbour has his own plough, Pookey since he's into cattle farming and requires crops. A nice sob story and kiddies running amok should do the trick and be sure to tell him how very kind he is. Perhaps a bit of money for his fuel so he'll come back next year if needed.
If possible, add whatever you can get cheap or free - manure, sand, old grobags, shredded leaves, etc. The plough will leave a rather coarse roll so you'd then need to have him run the discs over it to chop it up better, then the harrows to smooth it a bit. But if the harrows is pushing your luck, borrow a rotovator to make a bit smoother tilth. You'll have to keep socking in manure and whatever possible amendments for a few years to get reasonable tilth so be patient. My last house had builder's clay for soil and a pick axe was the only solution at times. Lots of old straw for mulch will help keep the soil slightly moist over the summer so you can work it for weeding or cropping, trust me on this! Others will moan about slugs and such but the slugs aren't a flicker as bad as the clay drying out mid summer to hardpan again. And if your time is limited, it's not what you want to waste it on.  

[WG.]

Fair enough richyrich7 / Trillium but if Pookey's description of the clay soil is accurate, then it will be of more interest to a potter than to a farmer.