Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Growing => Grow Your Own => Topic started by: pookey on March 16, 2007, 19:42
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i wanted to start a veg patch and i was planning to use a field i have that has been neglected for quite some time and has had cattle + horses grazing for the last 2 years (not my animals)! but when i went out on the field it has hardly any top soil and is heavy clay - waterlogged and sticky. I had to wrestle with every step to keep my wellies on! the ground is uneven and we have a very large rainfall - waterlogging is a common problem. I was considering building some beds on the concrete and seeing how the feild is in a couple of months. How high would beds on concrete need to be? I want to grow spuds, salad, strawberries, corn, carrots + parsnips, onion + garlic.
I have another option available, my garden is sloped and has more topsoil and is much less waterlogged - its also neglected and isbumpy with grass + weeds - not been mowed much. I was also considering the option of spraying an area with weedol and making some beds on the top here???
I have a 2 year old + 4 month old so preperation time is limited as my husband works or is away most days and I always have the rugrats with me.
i have just put up an 8x6 small greenhouse and have had my spuds chitting for 6 weeks or so.
all help appreciated - im clueless!!
i
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Clay despite it's drawbacks is fairly fertile... so a better option might be raised beds on the clay than on the concrete.
Pots on concrete are another matter as you can move these.
There have been various threads recently about starting new ground. Search for 'permaculture' for some of the no-dig ideas.
Good luck. (And a great way to get your littlies outside - I used to have a big old second hand high pram for the baby -warm and weather proof!)
Ps And despite what you might think, there will be some top soil where animals have been grazing. Although digging such compacted land may be interesting!
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I have two beds at home sitting on concrete, they are 8'x3' and about 12" deep with 8" of multi purpose growing medium x soil mix every year I add the contents of the compost bin to them. I have successfully grown carrots, potatoes, salad crops, beetroot,peas, herbs annual flowers etc in them, for the last three years. So you can grow most things, but be prepared for lots of watering. Think you might struggle with long rooted parsnips but apart from that no worries. So I would give it a go.
If you spray anything with weedol you will only kill the leaves, you need roundup or an equivalent weeedkiller for any perennial weeds.
Hope this helps.
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Hi Pookey
Raised beds on concrete would be expensive on a big scale and would prevent any moisture rising from underneath - they'd need a lot of watering even in Fermanagh. Your garden certainly sounds like a better bet. Even here, you might want to forget about parsnip and carrot for this year.
Do you own or rent? Reason I ask is that the field might benefit from drainage (expensive). Consult an expert - ideally the last person to farm it. A golf greenkeeper also knows a bit about drainage.
Can I suggest comfrey for the paddock. Comfrey will do really well on clay and will drive down roots which will help the soil structure to some depth. The theory here is that you cut & carry off the comfrey to drastically improve fertility in your garden. You can run chooks among the growing comfrey to keep it weeded and fertilised.
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You can run chooks among the growing comfrey to keep it weeded and fertilised.
I thought comfrey was poisonous for hens ? mine where certainly very bad for days after eating it last time they got near one of mine.
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I missed something fairly obvious in your posting. If they were grazing horses/cattle on your paddock then it is clearly capable of growing grass in goodly quantities. Doesn't alter my comfrey suggestion but does indicate that the soil may be better than you think.
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I thought comfrey was poisonous for hens ? mine where certainly very bad for days after eating it last time they got near one of mine.
I don't keep chickens but I quote the great man himself, Lawrence D Hills, "Bocking 14 is unpopular with chickens unless it is wilted and chaffed so, provided they are not starved of green food, they will eat the weeds between the rows rather than the plants".
I await other's experiences.
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To be honest the ground has probably just compacted and formed a "pan" through which the water can't drain, can you get some one to deep plough it and see how it goes from there. Heavy clay will benefit from a good dressing of lime this helps to bind the small clay particles together, plenty of organic material dug in will also help you may want to consider growing a green manure to dig in.
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I suspect that you may be best off starting with a couple of beds in the garden as you can contain the little people more easily.If you put beds across the slope then you end up with a terraced effect.Everywhere is very wet at the moment but I have found that the main thing about clay is that things grow once they get their roots down.Maybe potatoes in the field and other veg in the garden
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Do you own or rent? Reason I ask is that the field might benefit from drainage (expensive). Consult an expert - ideally the last person to farm it. A golf greenkeeper also knows a bit about drainage.
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Hi whisky, we own. The person who last owned the land moved to scotland somewhere (I'm in Northern Ireland) so I cant speak to them but I know drainage is a problem as our neighbours suffer from similar problems. I cant afford to add drainage, I looked into the underground pipes on gravel method but it would cost too much. I'll have to try and work with what I've got!
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, can you get some one to deep plough it and see how it goes from there. Heavy clay will benefit from a good dressing of lime this helps to bind the small clay particles together, plenty of organic material dug in will also help you may want to consider growing a green manure to dig in.
thanks - would ploughing mean I could pant straight away? I live next door to a cattle farmer - I'm sure he'd know someone with a plough. would it just level the ground or would it give me a reasonable texture?
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I know drainage is a problem as our neighbours suffer from similar problems. I cant afford to add drainage, I looked into the underground pipes on gravel method but it would cost too much. I'll have to try and work with what I've got!
Are you comfortable with the comfrey idea then? With or without the chooks. Despite what you may have heard, comfrey is pretty easy to kill off when you are ready to extend your veggie plot into the paddock. (Simply put under a polythene or Teram mulch for a whole season).
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I'd have a chat with the farmer, I think ploughing would just break up your ground, think farmers have a rotavator that goes on the back of the tractor that would give you a better finish. If you sprayed off the grass first with roundup you probably could plant this year with some later sowing stuff.
Just how big a field have you got ? I'm assuming that your not thinking of using all of it in the first year ?
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Perhaps your neighbour has his own plough, Pookey since he's into cattle farming and requires crops. A nice sob story and kiddies running amok should do the trick and be sure to tell him how very kind he is. Perhaps a bit of money for his fuel so he'll come back next year if needed.
If possible, add whatever you can get cheap or free - manure, sand, old grobags, shredded leaves, etc. The plough will leave a rather coarse roll so you'd then need to have him run the discs over it to chop it up better, then the harrows to smooth it a bit. But if the harrows is pushing your luck, borrow a rotovator to make a bit smoother tilth. You'll have to keep socking in manure and whatever possible amendments for a few years to get reasonable tilth so be patient. My last house had builder's clay for soil and a pick axe was the only solution at times. Lots of old straw for mulch will help keep the soil slightly moist over the summer so you can work it for weeding or cropping, trust me on this! Others will moan about slugs and such but the slugs aren't a flicker as bad as the clay drying out mid summer to hardpan again. And if your time is limited, it's not what you want to waste it on. :D
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Fair enough richyrich7 / Trillium but if Pookey's description of the clay soil is accurate, then it will be of more interest to a potter than to a farmer.
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True, WG, but it can be worked and made arable. I eventually got mine into shape as it was all I had and couldn't afford to rent any place else. And with young kiddies at home, it's hard for mums to get away to a lotty.
And for whoever, that wasn't a naughty word I used. Unless it's one in the UK :lol:
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Are you comfortable with the comfrey idea then? With or without the chooks. Despite what you may have heard, comfrey is pretty easy to kill off when you are ready to extend your veggie plot into the paddock. (Simply put under a polythene or Teram mulch for a whole season).
i certernally do - I like the simplicity, let mother Nature do the work, it wont give me imediate results but for land thats not in use - it's fab. Would I need to plough first?
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Our Clay is thick red stuff that can be dug out in blocks with v little topsoil in places.We now finally have raised beds with manure and compost added.The main problem before we raised beds and now is the hard panning of soil,if I sow in little trenches filled with compost the shoots can get up and the roots will fight their way into the clay.
Incase you doubt me the raised bed at the top of the slope has got moss growing in it.It`s been v wet here and this despite manure and compost and sand .this is also where the origional top soil was thinest,yet potatoes did well there last year and the autumn sown garlic is thriving.
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Would I need to plough first?
No, although richie could be onto something with the pan theory. Also, I recall you were concerned about the partial shading. Again comfrey should do fine altho 2 to 3 acres is a HELLUVA LOT of comfrey.
Try a test square of 40 plants or so at 24" centres - reckon on it staying there for 10 years or more. Kill the grass however you choose - weedkiller (ouch, before planting), or a 4-6" manure mulch (after planting). Prepare a pocket for each comfrey plant - can be pretty rough but anything to get a little air into the soil will help. Sharp sand and/or gypsum is good but not essential. Try to borrow a spike or a pinch bar and drive it a foot or more into the soil to break up any pan. If the hole it makes fills with water then don't bother.
Plant your comfrey and wait a year. You might be able to take a very light cut in year 1 if it thrives particularly well.
So you still need to befriend your farmer neighbours 'cos you want dung of all kinds. Comfrey is happy with fresh dung - even chicken and pigeon dung which no-one else wants. Horse and cow dung are best 'cos they'll have lots of straw in. If the horse dung has sawdust or wood shavings then this is okay if you do not dig it in.
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Fair enough richyrich7 / Trillium but if Pookey's description of the clay soil is accurate, then it will be of more interest to a potter than to a farmer.
:lol:
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Comfrey is supposed to be good feed for chickens according to L D Hills. Clay soils are hard work but supposed to be worth it. If the field slopes just dig some small trenches and a fair amount will drain away. Our site is very wet but these trenches seem to work really well.
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Thanks everyone, I have a few things to work on here! I think I will try a foot high bed on the concrete to get some bits planted now, then I am going to try and make a little patch on my clay, and comfrey a section, I certernally am not going to tackle the full 2 acres! Maybe I could chuck down a few palates so I can walk on it.
HERES A PIC OF SOME OF THE CLAY AREA I WANT TO WORK - IF IT HELPS, (IT SLOPES IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, DOWN AND ACCROSS)
(http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos201/1/55/79/86/24/7/724867955133_0_ALB.jpg)
I also wanted to get a little orchard going, how would I plant trees in this clay soil or would it be a waste of the trees? I suppose I could plant them in the garden bit with the better soil and drainage.
The garden is the least feasible area for me to work as there is no fence on it and the kids could get on to the road (or the cattle grid that Im always falling down! I fell down the one at my doctors when I was 8 months pregnant! - dangerous darn things! but then again theres always an escaped cow round here, not sure why the doctors need one though, maybe a lot of sick cows make the treck into the town!). Still, the trees would only need pruning from time to time so could keep them down at the bottom of the garden.
hERES A PIC OF THE GARDEN
(http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos201/1/55/79/2/1/7/701027955133_0_ALB.jpg)
I am keen to work the field as I have a fenced off play area right next to it for the kiddies, so I could potter about my patch and keep an eye on them.
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take the area you have in mind for your garden plot and then looking at it sat on ur heels look to see where a natural slope goes .now is there anywhere you can lead water away to such as a ditch. now with the plough run a single furrow to the lowest point in the garden . you can dig a trench or set of trenches going across the plot in a straight line if you cannot get the plough. lets say you decide on a rectangle for the layout of your plot . now if it was 30 yds long and 5 yds wide .you could run 3 trenches across the plot from right to left and finally take a single trench down the right hand side to where the lowest point or ditch is . fill this ditch with builders gravel this then will form what is known as a french drain. now preserving this drain dig or rotavate the plot within these trenches leaving maybe a foot iether side . now with added manure ( a couple of barrow loads to the sq yaror so and deep rotavating you can get the clay broken down . add 10 oz of slaked lime to the soil before rotavating as well this will help even more to break it down . if you want to at this time you can also add a few tons of pea gravel £14 ton in england .spread this around the plot a few shovel fulls to a sq yard . rotavate and add more manure and then rotavate it again . the motion of rotavating over a couple of days a week or so apart will give the lime and all the other additions time to act . you wont be able to plant potatos on the areas you have put lime on so maybe you should keep a couple of yards on one end free from the liming .and you can do that next year, this whole process, if you have the " ingrediants " at hand . :wink: you have manure from the farmer and a rear mounted rotavator of the farmers :wink: ,or a rotavator from a hire shop and the labour and baby sitter .you can be looking at planting out within a month and i believe that will still give you a great start
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My chooks like comfrey, in fact there's not much they don't like!!!!!
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My chooks like comfrey, in fact there's not much they don't like!!!!!
Mmm perhaps it was not the comfrey then grannieannie, thanks I'll try feeding them it again.
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Mmm perhaps it was not the comfrey then grannieannie, thanks I'll try feeding them it again.
Lawrence Hills' book suggests hanging up cut comfrey so that the birds have to reach for it. This would also ensure it wilts.
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I can`t think of any reason not to plant apple tree,if you prepare the planting hole properly they should thrive.
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thanks muntjac for all that info, youre a very helpful guy. The trenches are clever< if i stick to the raised beds idea< would i make trenches around each bed (1.2METRES WIDE) say each side of the paths>
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I am so excited, I have found my patch. After the dissapointment of the field needing so much work, I went out in the rain today with a spade and started to test parts of the garden. Theres a small patch of grass Ive found, and it is workable now - no waterlogging (its sloped) and the soil is clay but it crumbled well and looked rather rich! Loads of worms in it! There were some big tall single stem brown weed things, they looked dead and dried with brown bobbly clusters on the top, and I dug them out, but theres some good top soil on it!
I was planning on spraying killer on it and rotavating it. but I've put on another post named - 'deep root tree stump and weedkiller', theres some pictures of it too.
I would love to hear anyones opinions especially Muntjacs, as I've had some fab advice on this board which has got me raring to start growing!!
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take my advice for somethings but take notice of what everyone says ,i am not an expertt by any means and i never will be .i have done loads wrong so please use the wide knowledge base we have here .
now the brown knobbly things sound like suspicously like ragwort . dig it all up and watch for it growing again .dont let it seed .it is a yellow flowered plant/weed and is poisonous to stock especially horses and u have a legal requirment to eradicate it ... i would get some roundup and have it applied to the grass etc after the bad weather and then wait for 3 weeks to see it all go brown and dry then rotavate it over ,you can plant the nex day if you wish .
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or japanese knot weed mate that will be dead n brown this time of year the stalks are hollow
they grow to about 5'-7'
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they wont have the brown clusters on mate that is iether ragwort or maybe angelica heads :) but if it was angelica i would expect it to be ina thicker clump :wink:
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is that ragwort quite low to the ground with big leaves ?
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nah its about a yard high in good ground ,u thinking of ground elder?
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they wont have the brown clusters on mate that is iether ragwort or maybe angelica heads :) but if it was angelica i would expect it to be ina thicker clump :wink:
i think it's ragwort. If it stops snowing, i'll grab a photo and post it!
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Heres a puccy, not sure if it shows the heads well enough!
(http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos282/1/65/71/47/98/6/698477165133_0_ALB.jpg)(http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos282/1/65/71/47/98/6/698477165133_0_ALB.jpg)
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Hi pookey
I think the server you have the photos on has disallowed external web site connections to reduce their web load.
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Heres a puccy, not sure if it shows the heads well enough!
Can't say that I've seen these before - and I thought my weed collection was extensive.
One thing is obvious though ... your soil is MUCH better than you've described earlier. Look at the depth of these roots. PLUS you were able to dig / pull them out in one piece.
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i cant see them so cant advise on it . :lol:
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Why can some of us the the pictures but some cann`t.Sorry i cann`t help Pookey as there are quite a few plants with roots like that,if they come up intact like that I`d carry on pulling.
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its because some progamming sites dont accept stuff from others annie conflict of some sort :wink:
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It's to prevent hosting images on a free site and using them on high volume sites to reduce bandwidth costs.
Getting rarer now as bandwidth costs have fallen so much in the last couple of years.
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Hi Pookey,did I see little leaves there?Don`t know if you`ve got any big enough to help identification yet.
Thanks John and Muntjac,talk about steep learning curve with this computer business!
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Heres a puccy, not sure if it shows the heads well enough!
Can't say that I've seen these before - and I thought my weed collection was extensive
I think they are just docks. Kinda hard to make out with the seed head at the far side of the piccy.
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Think your right W-G those seed heads look like docks to me, wish mine would come out like that !
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You can run chooks among the growing comfrey to keep it weeded and fertilised.
I thought comfrey was poisonous for hens ? mine where certainly very bad for days after eating it last time they got near one of mine.
What are chooks?
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What are chooks?
Chickens
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What are chooks?
Chickens
And you call them up "HERE! Chooky chookey CHOOK - EEE!"
:)
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And you call them up "HERE! Chooky chookey CHOOK - EEE!"
I can almost hear you calling your chooks from here, Sal ... echoing around the Mountains of Mourne, as they sweep down to the sea.
Oh, Mary, this London's a wonderful sight
With people here working by day and by night
They don't sow potatoes, nor barley nor wheat
But there' gangs of them digging for gold in the streets
At least when I asked them that's what I was told
So I just took a hand at this diggin' for gold
But for all that I found there I might as well be
Where the Mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.
I believe that when writin' a wish you expressed
As to how the fine ladies in London were dressed
Well, if you believe me, when asked to a ball
Faith, they don't wear no top to their dresses at all.
Oh, I've seen them myself and you could not in trath
Say if they were bound for a ball or a bath
Don't be startin' them fashions now, Mary Macree,
Where the mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.
I've seen England's king from the top of a bus
And I've never known him, but he means to know us.
And tho' by the Saxon we once were oppressed,
Still I cheered, God forgive me, I cheered with the rest.
And now that he's visited Erin's green shore
We'll be much better friends than we've been heretofore
When we've got all we want, we're as quiet as can be
Where the mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.
You remember young Peter O'Loughlin, of course
Well, now he is here at the head of the force
I met him today, I was crossing the Strand
And he stopped the whole street with a wave of his hand
And there we stood talkin' of days that are gone
While the whole population of London looked on
But for all these great powers he's wishful like me
To be back where the dark Mourne sweeps down to the sea.
There's beautiful girls here, oh, never you mind
With beautiful shapes nature never designed
And lovely complexions all roses and cream
But O'Loughlin remarked with regard to the same
That if at those roses you venture to sip
The colours might all come away on your lip
So I'll wait for the wild rose that's waitin' for me
Where the Mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.
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Those weeds look like Dockens to me I must say and the roots. The seed heads also look like dockens and with what's left of last years leaves...just the framework.
Do you know what they look like when growing?
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Those weeds look like Dockens to me I must say and the roots. The seed heads also look like dockens and with what's left of last years leaves...just the framework.
Do you know what they look like when growing?
hi, I dont know what they looked like when they were alive but I think I've got them all now on the piece Im working! but some of them did break at the roots, so I'm sure they'll crop up again soon.
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Dock seems to be the consensus of all replies. In which case, don't worry, you will definitely see them alive later this year. You'll get a million dock seedlings on any cleared ground. (No matter what chemical arsenal you employ now).
Keep them hoed or use chemicals when they are seedling stage in a * fallow.