[woodburner]

Some places, no-one would think to mention clay as everywhere for twenty miles is like that!  

OMG you are so right!
Whenever reading this topic, it has been at the back of my mind that I probably have clay subsoil, (both at home and onthe lottie!) but as both have a slope, drainage is not a problem, so have never bothered looking.
Thinking a bit more about it after reading your post I remember I double dug my first allotment (different site) as it hadn't been used in 20 years, and oh yes, I remember now. . . lovely golden yellow colour it was too!
It was a spit and a half down and wouldn't have been a problem except that the paths were compacted so they basically made a dam around the lowest corner. I dealt with it by digging a trench across the path, put a few small branches at the bottom, covered them with twigs and refilled with soil.
This is actually the technique used decades ago or maybe centuries or even millennia, to drain ground, without dividing the ground into ridiculously small fields with surface ditches. You can sometimes see traces of them as crop marks, or even as shallow ditches, where the soil sank when the brushwood rotted away and was not replaced. So if you don't want to go raised beds, this might be an option. As I said before, do be careful not to mix the subsoil into the top layer.

[penance]

Not sure why you dug 4 spits deep. The top spit is most important, and a spit below can be dug over with grit etc, that will help drainage, doesnt matter what below.

[chimaera]

I had this last year; soils so clay heavy that I posted here asking what to do about it. As well as mixing organic matter or sand in to 'dilute' the clay, it can be broken up as well. I now know there are 4 things that break up clay (for me anyway); freeze-thaw, wet-dry, roots and worms. For the first two, dig it over to leave as rugged a surface as you can (a fork seems better for this) and the weather will break the clay structure (wetting and drying especially). For worms, give them a nice home with lots of organic matter to eat  and they'll do the work. I dug in everything and anything-bolted lettuces, cabbage leaves, twigs, the lot, and the worm population exploded. As for roots, where I grew brassicas last year, and left the roots in to rot after picking, the clay has broken up really well (just remember to rotate the crops in to stop disease). Potatoes seemed the real challenge as I was not sure I would be able to earth them up. I  the end I planted them in the bottom of shallow ditches with the spoil heaped alongside as a ridge. As i hoed the ridge over the summer, it gradually collapsed and earthed in the ditch, and seems to have worked Even with better soil now, I think I will do the same thing again.

Charlie

[richyrich7]

What do I need to do to allow people to access the photos I have put in my gallery?

if you want you can send them to me PM me I'll send you my email addy. then I'll post them direct to the thread.

Next don't worry about the clay subsoil, thats exactly what it is subsoil, 90% of veg won't touch it. If you have a spit deep of topsoil then your lucky compared to some.
My plot has exactly 1 spit deep then a hard pan of clay which I'm slowly breaking up.
And don't dig down so deep 4 spits is an awful long way down!

Don't give up, the clay was not mentioned as it's probably just part of the local geology much like a hill. I think the whole of Leic's must be on clay no one ever mentions it, apart from a quick moan 

One last thing Woodburner said

'Fraid I have to differ with some of the advice given. Whatever you do don't try and turn the sticky subsoil into topsoil, it will take years.
One spit depth is plenty for all but prizewinning length parsnips.
If you read up on double digging or even tree planting you will find warnings to keep the topsoil seperate and avoid mixing infertile subsoil into it.

They are right, I'd not think twice about it. Double dig it over a few years don't mix the layers, your just breaking up the subsoil to help drainage and release a few extra nutrients.

And enjoy, but it's not going to be easy don't let anyone tell you different 

[penance]

You have much more topsoil than I do on my plot, its not a problem.
The holes probably wont drain, they need somewhere to drain to.

Honestly, just double dig, come spring things will get better.

[penance]

Yep, can see the pictures.
The ditch is worthwhile, but still needs somewhere to drain IMO.

[woodburner]

That first hole looks just like the corner of my first lottie.

It (yellow clay) was a spit and a half down and wouldn't have been a problem except that the paths were compacted so they basically made a dam around the lowest corner. I dealt with it by digging a trench across the path, put a few small branches at the bottom, covered them with twigs and refilled with soil.
This is actually the technique used decades ago or maybe centuries or even millennia, to drain ground, without dividing the ground into ridiculously small fields with surface ditches. You can sometimes see traces of them as crop marks, or even as shallow ditches, where the soil sank when the brushwood rotted away and was not replaced. So if you don't want to go raised beds, this might be an option. As I said before, do be careful not to mix the subsoil into the top layer.

[karooba007]

Yep, can see the pictures.
The ditch is worthwhile, but still needs somewhere to drain IMO.

yes was thinking the same. the problem is that the guy who is under my plot has not touched his and as a result even if I dig the drainage trench all the way along my plot it won't drain well as his undug plot would be blockking the flow of water. maybe when he finds that all the water of my plot is causing his to be under water he will copy me and dig his own trench 

[woodburner]

If the water from your plot starts drainng onto your neighbours, he will have to do something about his drainage too.   

[karooba007]

That first hole looks just like the corner of my first lottie.

It (yellow clay) was a spit and a half down and wouldn't have been a problem except that the paths were compacted so they basically made a dam around the lowest corner. I dealt with it by digging a trench across the path, put a few small branches at the bottom, covered them with twigs and refilled with soil.
This is actually the technique used decades ago or maybe centuries or even millennia, to drain ground, without dividing the ground into ridiculously small fields with surface ditches. You can sometimes see traces of them as crop marks, or even as shallow ditches, where the soil sank when the brushwood rotted away and was not replaced. So if you don't want to go raised beds, this might be an option. As I said before, do be careful not to mix the subsoil into the top layer.

woodburner,  yes I  need to do as you said. Point taken on board. And very good advice it is, thank you. I will do this with the two vegetables patches I have dug (the pictures shown above). They are full of water and are not draining due to the paths compacting and blocking the flow of water (just as you said). The drainage ditch is close to it. I will dig up part of the footpath, separating the vegetable squares and the drainage ditch, put some twigs and fill it up.  Woodburner you had exactly the same problem as me didn’t you?

[woodburner]

Yes, from your description and photos, I would say it's exactly the same.

If you can run the 'ditch' to run directly to the drainage ditch that's great. It would pay your neighbour to do the same, too, even if he doesn't get your run-off. 

[richyrich7]

when I log out the pictures won't show  .

As far as I know pic's that are hosted by the site are only visible to forum members, not sure I never log out !

[Goosegirl]

My sympathies - I know how you feel! My soil is silt and the veg garden was a field so only the top few inches had been cultivated and ran over with tractors etc, so there is a hard "pan" of the pale grey-green stuff below. Raised beds is the best idea - beg from friends, Freecycle or ask around for some old boards or pallets to edge the beds or do Lazy beds. Double dig but don't incorporate the sub-soil in with the topsoil. Add as much muck, sharp sand, grit as you can in the lower layers-failing that, use mushroom compost as the lime in it will flocculate the clay particles and "stick" them together to make larger soil particles and help aerate the soil; if too expensive, just do one bed with it or buy a packet of garden lime for all the beds. Don't rush the preparation; take it a bit at a time. If you raise veg from seed, there's no harm in just bunging them in your unprepared beds and see what happens. That's half the fun in growing, but don't despair - you'll kick yourself if you do-look forward to harvesting your first veg and it will all be worth it. Best of luck!

[penance]

Whether you had the clay pan or not you would still need to double dig to get the best results.
Its part of growing veg no mater what the soil is like.

[rainbow1]

Goosegirl, When I took up the allotment I wasn't expecting this problem. I expected that I would have to remove turf\weeds turn the soil and then I can Plant.
I wasn't expecting to have to do so much digging just so that my plot stays above water.
I don't want to be digging the entire plot while every one else is planting ready for spring.
I go to the allotment on the Sunday and do digging for 5/6 hrs. The rate of progress means that I can't see that the whole plot would be ready for the start of the growing season (March).  I hope that the growing season doesn’t pass me by.
I have some garlic, shallots, flower bulbs I wanted to put in but I can't because I have no dry land, so I am already starting to fall behind.

keep heart karooba007! Could you find the dryest (highest?) bit and get a small patch ready there so that you could at least plant something to keep your spirits up?