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is my writing style ok or am i too technical?

yeah, it makes sense, kinda
24 (66.7%)
eh? what choo hon aboot?
12 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Voting closed: February 01, 2007, 11:09


Solar (photovoltaic) Electric Power

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psipower

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Solar (photovoltaic) Electric Power
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2007, 23:49 »
Quote from: "Zak the Rabbit"
Its actually good practice for me, i want to teach science, so it helps me learn how to pitch the subject matter.


If you are serious, I hope you don't mind me tearing this to shreds, as per *my opinion* :). This kind of language may well do for people who are never going to hold a screwdriver, and therefore don't really need to know anything about it anyway, but let's not screw things up for those who might want more later!

(mini rant!!! ? - it's been a while since I've done one of them :). Must be a side-effect of my old physics teacher who was a stickler for accuracy - and getting things right!)


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its quite simple really, big solar panels are made up of lots of little solar panels. The ones in the tops of solar garden lights have a voltage of about 2v and a current rating of about 10mA (in good sun)


will let you off there, if your not teaching basic English! It's.

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the voltage is a measure of a power supplies ability to 'push' the current around the circuit. The current is a measure of how many electrons are moving and able to do work. Voltage is measured in volts (v), current in Amps (A), mA is milliamps, or thousanths of an amp, so 10mA is 0.01A


Well, voltage is defined as a measure of the amount of energy carried per unit of charge... [Eng]a power supply's[Eng] - measured in Volts (V) when using the SI system of units. Current is the rate of flow of charge - which may or may not be electrons.

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power is measured in Watts (W) and in a DC circuit like this, is worked out by ohms law  V x I = P, so these little panels are 2 x 0.01 = 0.02W, or 20mW


Power is the 'rate' of energy - and is watts in the SI system when using joules per second. Ohm's law {Eng!} is 'In a metallic conductor at a constant temperature, the potential difference across it is proportional to the current through it'. In the SI system this can be represented by the equation V=IR (still only in a metallic conductor at constant temperature) since the definitions of quantities are chosen to keep it simple. (This is nothing to do with power...). In an AC circuit the same law applies.

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now, to be usefull the solar panel needs to give a voltage of 12v to charge a battery, so by wiring 6 of the 2v little panels in series (ie the + lead of one connects to the - lead of the next) we can make it a 12v panel (6x2=12). Trouble is, the current is still 10mA, even though we now have 6 panels. To increase the current, we wire in parallel (ie all + connect together, all - connect together). Lets say we want 100mA, we need 10 panels in parallel (10 x 10 =100), so what we end up with, is a grid comprising 10x6. ten lots of the 6 panel series wired units, wired in parallel.


OK, but practically speaking a 12V battery needs more like 13.9V to charge it - so add another little panel. Useful!

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so a reasonable panel that can charge a battery (albeit only trickle charge at this current) needs at least 60 of the small panels. It starts becoming easy to see why big solar panels are expensive!


Ok, so then we need to charge the battery. Now, lets assume we have a good commercial solar panel, rated 12v 1A (12W!), a typical lead acid battery has a rating of 20Ahr. That means you can take 20A in an hour, or 1A for 20h, before its flat. We also ideally charge the battery at 1/10th its capacity, so if its capacity is 20Ahr, we charge it at 2A for 10hours. So our panel of 1A will take 20hour in good sunlight to completely charge the battery. But! lets say the battery is only used for a light, but lets say for simplicity the light takes 1A at 12v(ie a 12w bulb!), we have the light on for 1hour a day, so the battery goes down 1A in that day, so we only need to charge it for as long as it takes to replace that energy. If it takes 20hour to replace 20A, it will only take an hour to replace the 1A we have used. So one hour of sunlight a day keeps the battery charged.


Yuk. At first I thought it was a typo (generous :) eh?) but then you do it twice more! How does a battery 'go down 1A' - is this a new measurment of distance? Has it sprung a leak? Certainly 1Ah of energy is used from the battery. and that 1Ah wants replacing, and at 1A it would take 20 hours to supply 20Ah of energy...

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Of course this is very simplistic, ive assumed simple easy values and assumed good sunlight so the panel always gives its full rated output. In real life, the panel may often be giving lower output (poor sunlight/overcast days) or none at all for aprox half the day (ie at night). At other times the sunlight may be very strong and the panel exceed its ratings. This is where, if you have a big panel, a charge regulator becomes needed, to prevent overcharging the battery. As the sunlight increases in brightness, the voltage and current also increase. Its this increase in voltage above what the battery can handle that leads to overcharging. Current is more of an availability thing, the panel can supply 1A, but if nothing takes that 1A, it doesnt flow. Take as an example you mains electricity, your 100W bulb takes about 500mA, but your supply can give 100A! if all that was forced down your wires it would melt them very quickly!


Unnecessarily simplistic and often wrong! You have the good idea of illustrating a 12W bulb on a 12V system taking 1A, and therefore using 1Ah in an hour. Keep hold of this basic idea (energy) and that covers all the variability of night, shade, etc. since your solar panel just needs to produce 1Ah of energy to recharge the battery! This can be the peak output of the panel for 1 hour, or half-power for 2 hours etc.

Increasing light does not necessarily increase the output power, voltage or current of PV panels. They have an 'open circuit' voltage rating which is the maximum voltage they can produce (some light under no load). This will be reached quite quickly even in dim light since it is a function of the physics of photons and matter. It may be affected by shading of parts of the panel (and cloudiness). Panels also have a rated 'short circuit' current - what they will deliver if you connect the + and - together in full light. The current will increase with increasing light upto near this level, but not go above it. The rated power is derived from the optimum particular balance of voltage and current the panel is designed to deliver. Thus a panel may be Voc=44V, Isc=5.12A, yet be rated at 180W since its peak output is at Vmppt=37V Imppt=4.86 (mppt=maximum power point)

It is not the excess voltage/current of the panel caused by excess light that causes the need for a charge regulator - it is simply the balance between energy put in against energy taken out. If your panel cannot produce enough energy, your battery will eventually go flat. So you need a panel that can produce more than you use! The charge regulator simply disposes of any surplus energy from the panel when the battery is charged. It should also increase the efficiency of the panel by letting the panel run at its Vmppt and Imppt - and transforming these to a lower ideal battery charging voltage at slightly higher current. (12V nominal PV's are often 17Vmppt, and connecting them directly to a 12-13.8V battery wastes that surplus energy potential.)

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Of course, if your light or whatever is a lower wattage on your solar setup, say a 5W 12v bulb, the current it takes in use is lower, the battery is less drained, and so it takes less time to restore it to full capacity.


If it is a 5W bulb, it doesn't matter what voltage it is - it will take 5W. Turn it on for an hour and it has used 5Wh! If the PV panel puts out 5W for 1 hour (or 2.5W for 2h etc.) this will be 5Wh and cover the energy used.

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This is why, except very rarely, a solar panel never directly powers anything, its output will tend to fluctuate, is not available at night, and is often too low. Its like drinking water, we get a constant supply from the tap despite the fact that rainfall and riverflow are not constant, due to the storage of water in reservoirs. The battery is your reservoir. And just as water systems have sluiches and valves to keep the reservoir form getting too full, thats what a charge regulator does!


Nothing before the 'this is why' is the reason! Why not just a plain statement of 'A solar panel rarely... because...' ?

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OK, so, what panels are there? well, theres three basic technologies -

Amorphous silicon - brown, like in calculators, not very efficient, not good on overcast days, needs good light. But the cheapest!


Work better on overcast days

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polycrystalline and monocrystalline silicon - both blue colour, more efficient and able to keep a good output in poor light, disadvantage is they are more expensive.


Not very good on overcast days Polycrystaline are blue, monocrystaline are charcoal.

4th type is 'hybrid' - expensive but good in both overcast conditions and strong light - and expensive, of course! :)

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My panel is made of a pair of 6"x6" (roughly) amorphous silicon panels.

The other essential is the Diode. This is a little semiconductor eletronic device (like a black cylinder with two wires sticking out) and acts as a one way valve to the flow of current. Each panel has one of these in its + lead, and it stops current flowing back through the panel from the battery or from any other panels its wired to, when the light is poor (which can damage the panel). They are cheep ( a 1N4001 diode is rated at 1A and cost about 3p if that) and small (3mm long ish), but have a slight disadvantage, the lose 0.6v across them. So a 2v panel will be a 1.4v panel on the other side of its protection diode. Because of this, a panel built of lots of smaller ones needs a few extra small panels to account for the loss. But thats preferable to breaking the panel!


'cheep? ' Am I back on the poultry pages??? :) Congratulations on saying 'voltage accross'. A parrot probably would 'voom' if you put 4 million volts across it!

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for best results from a panel, it would follow the sun around, but such tracking is very expensive. For a simple setup, just get it facing south, at an angle where it will pick up most of the sunlight, say between 30-50degrees (45deg is good :wink: ) mines at about 50.


[Eng]mine's[Eng]

There is only a few percentage points of loss at SSE or SSW orientation. 40deg is probably better, especially with mono/poly which will really gobble up the late spring to early autumn sunshine on 23rd August each year.

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there we go, a quick introduction to the basic concepts of solar electricity, and a physics lesson thrown in free, gratis, AND fer nowt!, what more could ya want? :D  :D


And don't take offense, please, but the physics lesson was a bit dodgy. Glad I didn't pay for it! :D. If you want to teach the stuff, teach it right from day one.

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Zak the Rabbit

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Solar (photovoltaic) Electric Power
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2007, 00:03 »
cheers for that, and only at midnight :D  im on shift for another 8hours.

ive no problem with constructive critisism, but a couple of points -

1. accuracy isn't important in this topic
2. i dont have time to proof read everything
3. this was aimed to put across a technical subject matter to non-techinical people without losing essential data

i could have written it in ladybird book language, or equally well as a BSc or MEng essay but much of the info wasn't required.

Incidentally, ohms law does not apply fully to an AC circuit except where that circuit is purely resistive, but as all AC circuits contain some inductance and capacitance and are therefore reactive, account must be taken of the reactance at the specific frequency of operation, which ultimately would lead us to require definining values of impedance and hence the use of j notation and phasor information, and for power calculations the circuits power factor would need to be calculated.


hey,ho,  back to keeping the nations TV transmitters operating tonight...

 :D
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
the rabbit of caerbannogg

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WG.

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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2007, 00:05 »
Bleeding heck ... heavy stuff.   One of my Physics lecturers at Uni was Prof R V Jones, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Victor_Jones

His lectures were much more fun ...  :wink:  :D

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Zak the Rabbit

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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2007, 00:20 »
old RVJ certainly knew his stuff, :)

great man, much of what i work with now is descended from work he did


so, WG, you wouldnt like a dissitation on chemoelectric atmospheric absorption interactions, surface insolation and planetary albedo to keep you awake?

how about chloroplastic pigmentation and mitochondrial electron transport in dinucleotide catabolis?

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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psipower

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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2007, 08:24 »
Quote from: "Zak the Rabbit"
cheers for that, and only at midnight :D  im on shift for another 8hours.

ive no problem with constructive critisism, but a couple of points -

1. accuracy isn't important in this topic
2. i dont have time to proof read everything
3. this was aimed to put across a technical subject matter to non-techinical people without losing essential data



More of my opinion(!) :

1. Accuracy is important if you are informing others. While you may know you are being loose, the uninitiated do not know and will end up learning your inaccuracy, and then having to unlearn it or think they are wrong/useless when they get things wrong as a consequence.

2. Practise being right first time!!!

3. If the people are non-technical and not likely to progress in the subject, then the jargon/technicality is ultimately irrelevant to them, but you can still choose to give it right/accurate. This will benefit others as per point 1.

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i could have written it in ladybird book language, or equally well as a BSc or MEng essay but much of the info wasn't required.


In ladybird language:

I want a 12W bulb on for 1 hour a day. Therefore I need 12Wh of energy per day.
This can come from supplying 12W for 1 hour, or 6W for 2 hours etc.
I have a 12V car battery to use as an energy store.
Since Watts=VoltsxAmps, in a 12V system I am getting 12W at 1Amp, or 6W at .5Amps etc. Thus to get 12Wh I need a current of 1A for an hour, .5A for 2 hours etc.
My solar cells are 2V, so I need to string 6 of them together to reach 12V (like you put 4 x 1.5V batteries in a radio to supply 6V)
These little cells only produce 10mA (=.01A). .01Ax12V=0.12W. So they would need to be on for 100 hours to produce 12Wh. Not very good. By adding more strings of 6 cells, each capable of providing 10mA, we can increase the power. 10 such strings would provide 0.1A. Now we only need 10 hours to produce 12Wh.

etc.


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Incidentally, ohms law does not apply fully to an AC circuit except where that circuit is purely resistive, but as all AC circuits contain some inductance and capacitance and are therefore reactive, account must be taken of the reactance at the specific frequency of operation, which ultimately would lead us to require definining values of impedance and hence the use of j notation and phasor information, and for power calculations the circuits power factor would need to be calculated.


OK! :) So you do know what you are talking about!!! Don't let yourself down with sloppy writing, then :)!


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hey,ho,  back to keeping the nations TV transmitters operating tonight...

 :D


Thanks, but the listen again facility on BBC7 keeps me going - all those 'I'm Sorry I haven't a Clue', 'Burkiss Way', 'Goon show', Poirot, Marple, Holmes.... - good old quality radio :D

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WG.

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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 09:03 »
Quote from: "Zak the Rabbit"
old RVJ certainly knew his stuff, :)

great man, much of what i work with now is descended from work he did

He was my favourite lecturer 'cos he was so human.  Had us all in stitches describing how they employed guys simply to carry sheets of glass around the radar research facility - that's all they did, no other purpose than to confuse any spies who might be watching.

Quote from: "Zak the Rabbit"

so, WG, you wouldnt like a dissitation on chemoelectric atmospheric absorption interactions, surface insolation and planetary albedo to keep you awake?

how about chloroplastic pigmentation and mitochondrial electron transport in dinucleotide catabolis?
Awwh, I was just going to say that!   (I never thought I'd see a posting which had more unknown words than one of Muntjac's)

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RoynLisa

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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2007, 00:37 »
Hi Zak,I have used a square monocrystalline panel approx 18x18 inches to recharge some free 12v rechargeable batteries from a golf buggy-not sure what Ah these are rated at...but it charges them efficiently to run my fishfinder/bilges which is ideal as i like to keep my engine/spare batteries free from any other for safety.
this panel was got from a well known internet buying/selling site for a measly £6.00 plus postage.
apologies as i can't tell anyone anything about the technicalities of electrics.
thanks rnl

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Teen76

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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2008, 23:13 »
Everything that has been said here has gone completely over my head.  I don't have a scientific mind unfortunately :oops:

However, I hope this doesn't sound silly, but I am interested to know if you could basically power your shed with solar energy.  All I ever see it used for is lighting, but what about heating or running heated propagators off it?
Teen

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Aidy

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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 13:11 »
went straight through my ears too! however, I power my shed with a petrol genny, less than 40 squids and runs anything I need to use.
Punk isn't dead...it's underground where it belongs. If it comes to the surface it's no longer punk...it's Green Day!

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Teen76

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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 15:59 »
Glad I'm not the only one  :oops:

I imagine that might be abit noisy, the generator I mean.  My shed is at home right next door to my neighbour's house.  Not sure they would be to pleased with the droning of the genny...

Good idea though if on an allotment site.

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Aidy

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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2008, 16:52 »
Quote from: "Teen76"
Glad I'm not the only one  :oops:

I imagine that might be abit noisy, the generator I mean.  My shed is at home right next door to my neighbour's house.  Not sure they would be to pleased with the droning of the genny...

Good idea though if on an allotment site.

Break into their house and run a spur from their mains  :roll:  I am sure Zak would give you the tech details. :wink:

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Teen76

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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2008, 17:04 »
You know Aidy, you could be a very bad influence on me  :twisted:

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poultrygeist

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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2008, 19:56 »
I'm no genius with this subject but bear with me.

The solar panels would just about power the light but that's about it I think.

On 'It's not easy being green' the Strawbridges powered a fan in their greenhouse from a solar panel and battery to circulate warm air stored during the day in a heat sink. Very clever idea.

It's only for low power stuff. On boats they use them to help charge batteries I think.

I think Aidy's idea is favourite.  8)

Rob

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Teen76

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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2008, 20:00 »
I saw some of those programmes, very good but utterly beyond me I think.

Thanks for the info

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poultrygeist

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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2008, 20:17 »
Likewise. Unless you have a healthy bank balance to fund the cheap living  :)

Rob



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