no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.

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Madame Cholet

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2013, 21:06 »
I don't have much compost as yet but tonnes of manure free delivered on site so I'm using it by the barrow load.  If my lotty makes me self-sufficient in fruit veg and a few nuts with a little spare for presreves in a couple of years and provides a little wildlife haven too and lots of good friends I'llbe as happy as a pig in .....
Diary at- http://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?topic=85680.75

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To good friends, good food and dirty hands

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NickoV

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2013, 09:00 »
When we first got our allotment, the neighbouring plot had the no dig bug. She insisted it was the way to go, so I have had one 16x5ft bed strictly for no dig over the past five seasons. The only crops that seem to benefit is lettuces, and other shallow rooted, quick maturing crops. They really do flourish, but they do everywhere else as well.
Long term crops, such as sprouts, leeks, parsnips etc etc always get off to a decent start, then slow down a fair bit in comparison with the other beds. To be honest, the no dig bed has probably had more organic matter added over the years than the dug beds, but still don't out perform them.

I have visited a garden charles dowding helped set up and mentor, and to be honest, although it's always nice to see veg growing, however it's being grown, it didn't strike me that anything was really growing super well.
Charles himself states on his site that the cropping differences between his dug and undug beds is negligible, so I always find it funny, when people who have been trying it out for a season or two, state the massive rise in crops they now get and the perfect way in which everything grows, as opposed to when they grew veg more traditionally.

Of course everyone has there own ways of doing things, I NEVER dig between November and march, real damage is always done to the soil during work at this time of year no matter how hard you try to be careful. Thick mulches of smashed up leaves, then well rotted farmyard manure is spread thickly over the soil during winter, thus protecting the soil surface from winter erosion. It's then turned roughly in, about early march time, so that all these ingredients are where the roots can get at them over a whole season.

This rough turning of the soil also opens the ground up so the birds can get at any unwanted soil Bourne pests.

I now earn my living by growing top quality veg for a busy hotel, and there is no way I could consider No Dig to do it. In the past five years, my experience is that well prepared soil, treated specifically for the crop that is to follow, will outperform any other methods I have had experience with. I'm not saying all this to put anyone off doing things one way or another, just to put a realistic spin, on a usually unrealistic thread.... :tongue2:

Totty

Your experiences are really interesting Totty, thank you for sharing.If you grow for a hotel  then you must have to really focus on quality of produce. I know what it is like when selecting stuff to take to market - has to look just right.

With all else the same, I, for one, certainly have never been under the impression that no-dig methods alone would out perform digging methods in terms of food yields. As you know there is so much more to growing food than just how the soil is cultivated - timing, light, heat, moisture, variety, etc etc.

I agree we all should work out our own way of doing things.  And this thread shows how everyones experiences can be vastly different. You and I both have to produce top quality veg, we both have been doing it for a good few years, and have experimented with different methods, and we both have come to different conclusions as to the best methods to use. Its all the other variables that have caused us to come to these different conclusions.
I am guessing that we are in very different situations. My food growing area, all in all, is about half an acre. Its just not practical to dig it over by hand. I can give my plants lots of space, the whole plot gets loads of sunlight, and we live on a marsh so the water table is not far away but we never flood because of the surrounding drainage ditches. The sea is just a mile away which tempers extremes of temperature, and there are many sources of organic matter available to me all year round.
I feel very lucky.
Over the last 11 years I have come to a good balance in the garden between environmental impact, financial impact, physical impact, time use and yields. The methods I use are developing all the time, and are a compromise between all these things.

I think it is great that no-dig has become more popular. It gives an alternative method to use for those who don't get on with, or like the sound of the conventional way of growing crops by hand. It is also currently considered organic best practice.So better for life on the planet in the long run.(It is recommended by Dr. Anton Rosenfeld, an agronomist and researcher for GO, that organic matter is only incorporated into the top 3-5 centimetres of the soil.Its not the roots of the plants that consume the organic matter, its the aerobic life in the soil.) This isn't to say that this will produce the highest yields, just that it will release the least carbon into the atmosphere.

Having said all this I think growing food is a great thing to do whatever methods used. :)

Nick
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:05 by NickoV »
These are just my opinions based on what I have read, the filters my brain uses as a product of my upbringing, and the experiences I have had growing food. I am not intending to convince anyone I am right, just supply my opinion when it is asked for. I am also open to changing my opinions! Nick

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diospyros

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2013, 09:18 »
(It is recommended by Dr. Anton Rosenfeld, an agronomist and researcher for GO, that organic matter is only incorporated into the top 3-5 centimetres of the soil.Its not the roots of the plants that consume the organic matter, its the aerobic life in the soil.)

Which makes a complete nonsense of throwing uncomposted vegetable matter into the bottom of the runner bean trench, for a start.  It will decompose anaerobically, which is.. um... bad.  More greenhouse gases?  I think it must help with water retention and that is why it has become a traditional practice, plus it gets rid of a large bulk of kitchen waste at a time when the compost heap proper is not working very fast.

I'm more of a low-dig person myself.  What the farmers term "min-till".  I have had great success with growing potatoes under a layer of cardboard with grass cuttings on top, topped up all summer.  It's a  permaculture principle - you may get lower yields but your inputs in terms of labour and energy and artificial fertiliser are also lower, so your net gain is improved.

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aelf

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2013, 10:14 »
Very interesting thread, thanks everyone!  :)

Can't decide which is the best way forward tho  :unsure: I find the 'no dig' idea appealing as I don't ever really have enough time to dig over all of my plot. That said, it just feels wrong to not dig. After all, farmers have been turning over their soil for all of recorded history. Perhaps the ecosystems have adapted to cope with that disruption.

Lots to think about...
There's more comfrey here than you can shake a stick at!

http://www.wedigforvictory.co.uk/dig_icon.gif[/img]

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goodtogrow

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2013, 10:19 »
I agree with the trade-offs you mention, diospyros.  If, as some of us have done, we quantify the trade-offs, we find that the net gain is greater under no-dig/zero-tillage/min-til.  Put simply, it's more efficient, economically, overall, but to arrive at that conclusion you have to quantify things.

I do not know of higher yields being claimed for no-dig.  I have heard of lower yields being claimed.  If application rates as prescribed, organic matter, are used I have found no significant loss of yield in no-dig in 20 years, on different soils, admittedly on the narrow range of crops that I grow.

If we consider the application rates, and alongside them compare nutrient uptake requirements (published) for different crops, those rates are very generous indeed.  It's why I don't add any more fertilizers.
No-one has a monopoly of knowledge, nor wisdom

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Ema

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2013, 18:20 »
I didn't dig spuds this year I plonked them on a handful of compost on the ground then covered with plenty of straw and then weed membrane. I had an ok harvest but my best harvest was from a lazy bed where you flip 2 clods of earth over without weeding.

I have an awful lot of weeds left on my plot couch grass and plantain. Particularly in the paths between beds. I'm hoping to dig out the couch grass over winter and cover what I can with cardboard and never digging again.

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loobs61

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2013, 17:12 »
Hi Everyone,
I have been reading this thread with great interest.I really like the idea of "minimal" dig, and plan to start this now before the winter arrrives. Paper/cardboard no probs got loads of that, manure I will have to source but should not be to much of a problem as I know of a few nearby stables, But wood chip, now my next door neighbour has said I can help myself to as much well rotted leaf compost as I want, and theres loads ! rotted down over a good few years, do you think I could use that instead of wood chips it seems a shame not to make use of it.Will it have the same sort of absorbancy ?
Any thoughts on this one please, oh I should say mostly oak leafs as we are surrounded by oak trees.
thanks       

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Totty

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2013, 22:07 »
I think in terms of oak leafmold, the leaves of oak are quite acidic and when composted down in large quantitys the resulting 'black gold" is far from ideal for most plants. I remember being told that no more than 15-20% of leaves you collect for compost should be from oak, so would probably avoid using the stuff you have been offered to be honest.

Totty

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marcofez

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2013, 22:49 »
I'm about 75% there with no dig, but still a lot to learn!
Here's some more "Charles Dowding"
http://www.charlesdowding.co.uk/

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loobs61

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2013, 10:12 »
Totty, thanks for the heads up about the oak leaf mould. Any ideas on what sort of company I would get bark chippings in bulk from, I am thinking tree surgeons ? am I on the right track ?
Marcofez, the link to Charles dowding was inspirational !!! will be looking into his site in more depth looks amazing.thanks for the advise everyone

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Flowertot

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2013, 11:02 »
Any ideas on what sort of company I would get bark chippings in bulk from, I am thinking tree surgeons ? am I on the right track ?

I discovered recently that my local council recycling depot gives away bags of bark chippings for free.  Perhaps yours does too?

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moose

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2013, 11:57 »
Try Freegle or Gum Tree. My local one has a tree surgeon who often offers builders bags either collect or pay for fuel. Another one will contact you if they are near and you can go and bag up you own as they work.

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diospyros

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2013, 19:00 »
In previous years I have found when we take the tree to be chipped in January at the Parish Council you can take away at least a barrow full of chip.  I am taking the car and all my compost bags this year and hope to finish the paths on the plot with the bounty!

Although that's not really a no-dig tip as I wouldn't use it as a mulch on the growing areas.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 19:00 by diospyros »

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Madame Cholet

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Re: no dig gardening hints tips and comments please.
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2013, 22:27 »
I get my chips delivered for the cost of fuel 15.00 large load. great for paths.just wondering if i mix it with manure as a mulch for the forest garden as its doesn't need such a high nutrient base.



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