To worm preventive or not..

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Toosje

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To worm preventive or not..
« on: February 22, 2018, 09:03 »
Hello dears,

I notice something I find very remarkable. I have been talking about worming in the forum with you guys for the second time now and in the mean time searching for more information and products here in the Netherlands.

The main difference is that worming here is not done until there is proof of your chicken having worms. Most products go through vets, although I did find some 'non registered' which means, for sale through shops.

I have read quite a few discussions about worming regularly or preventive and the reasons for not doing it is: they say you lessen your chickens condition; every worming lessens your chickens strength/condition, they always have worms but live in harmony and if the chicken is healthy a little disbalance will solve it self: through the chickens natural strong condition.
It is even said: if you have a vet who advises you to worm preventive, find a better vet!

I have no opinion on this, due to lack in experience around the subject, but I am very curious about your thoughts considering this subject, the difference in approach or stories why you think one should or maybe shouldn't.

Many thanks for enlightening me ;)

P.S. the picture is just for fun.
DSC_0311.jpg

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Aidy

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 17:41 »
It is indeed an interesting subject and like you I have heard/ read varying advice.
I had read that like we are with anti-biotics it was suggested we reduce the amount of time we worm as the worms can evolve to make the wormer less effective!

My own personal experience has been by treating them as a preventive appears to be better than treating when signs appear (my early days of chicken keeping)

I will add, since I have used Stalosan F in the run and coop the chooks have been a lot healthier and had less problems all round.
Perhaps this suggests good house keepng is priority!
Punk isn't dead...it's underground where it belongs. If it comes to the surface it's no longer punk...it's Green Day!

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Toosje

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 08:07 »
Yes, the immunity I read about as wel, but forgot to mention. Like we had with anti-flee drops. All of a sudden the flees didn't respond to the treatment any more.

Can you tell me Aidy, what your improvement is since you worm preventive?
Did they actually become ill? Was it really hard to get rid of them?

My silkies turn 4 in may and I haven't had a spot on them, until last week one of them had a dirty bum, but not structural. I now think it is a combination of lettuce and free ranging on the compost heap, which I close of now every other day. Her bum now is bright white like it used to be.

So no lice, mites, diarrhea, lack of energie.. feather loss, you name it. Together they lay about 14 eggs a week, become broody every 6 to 8 weeks and have been going like that since 'adulthood' on a batch of fermented grains, pellets, water and free ranging. In the coop I use hemp cuts.
I had droppings checked once after about 2 years because I thought it a bit watery and it turned out to be healthy. It was due to the warm weather; they were drinking more :)
They came to me when they were 3 days old.
Could be I am just lucky with a very stable little flock..

We have 3 newbies: and they are a bit of a different story, but after their start here and some treatment (blood lice and .. I forgot how you call it: the mites on the feet) they seem healthy. I am not totally convinced. The 2 hens we got as adults and the cockerel was just a little one when we found him in the woods last september.

I hope to find the added value of worming preventive or maybe end up deciding I agree with the vets here..
DSC_0675.jpg

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Aidy

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 09:38 »
My Chickens are kept on my allotment so although they have a lot of space they still live within a caged enviroment due to Mr Fox, however as my plot is at the back of my garden they do help me keep the lawn nice and short and play a game of footy with me  :wacko:
What I noticed was probably by accident that when I used the layers with flubenvet (once every 6 months) rather than the powder and combined with the use Stalosan F I rarely had any issues at all, the hens were happy healthy chooks.
Whenever I am asked about keeping chickens I always recommend Stalosan F as a must for coop and runs if enclosed, I do believe that this product and probably others of the same, really make a big difference in killing a lot of the eggs and other nasties in the beddng and the ground , this then combined with worming keeps it all healthy.
Killing the bugs at source rather than killing them in the chooks.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:39 by Aidy »

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New shoot

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 10:58 »
Perhaps this suggests good house keepng is priority!

I agree that good husbandry is 90% of the job done with poultry.  Toosje's chickens free range, so disinfecting the whole area they use may not be practical.  I don't disinfect my big run (the small one moves regularly onto fresh ground).  I use a deep litter system and a large run for a few hens, which keeps the run floor pretty clean.  The run is also roofed.

I use preventatives to reduce the amount of worming I do.  Mine get done every 6 months and get granulated garlic in between.  You can also use herbal stuff or apple cider vinegar (special chicken stuff - don't just buy human stuff) to the same effect.

Here in the UK, regular worming is pretty normal.  I guess you have to balance the effects of worming every 6 months to the effects of carrying worms.  Flubenvet treats gape worm as well as intestinal worms and chickens have to have a pretty heavy burden before you see worms in their poo or them gasping for breath.  To test for worm eggs, you have to collect poo and process it.  I think that is what your vet was going to do when they asked you to collect poo for them to test Toosje. 

My hens over the years have regularly lived to 10 years old or more, so I personally don't think worming does them any harm at all.

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Toosje

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 21:02 »
Thank you New Shoot.
What is a 'deep litter system'?

Good care for your animals is the basis of all I think, wether it's cats, rabbits, canaries or chickens.
A lot has changed for my ladies over the last year because I moved house but before that they would travel up and down with me every weekend (together with my cat :) ). One of them didn't take well to the changes and because i would travel in darkness with them, it was getting harder to plan around it and we decided the chooks would move permanently to Jelle last april.
Their old run was very sheltered with lots of big bushes, a little pond and it was bigger than the run here. This winter has been extremely wet and they had less shelter apart from wat we provided and they got 3 neighbors (the cockerel we found with ladies his size).
I have had 'eagle eyes' on them to be sure all where happy and healthy. I do realize though that the way I have been keeping them in my prior house can not continue especially since they have to share their space with three other chickens who ar very aggressive towards them. This limits their moving space (I keep them apart) and will easier lead to 'messy surroundings'. Also: the big ones will eat anything and now I started with swopping free ranging in front and back yard: this because of the compost heap and so the roam 'each others' patch.

It is good to know that showing worms means quite a burden already. This means no signs are no guarantee.
Is it your experience that a chicken can have worms when her poo is firm?
You are probably wright about the processing of my Toosje. But he said there was no use when I told him her poo was firm.

I am happy to hear you chooks get to a good old age :) you get so attached to them <3

I had a look for granulated garlic in the horses section of a farm shop but haven't found any yet. The centre I normally go to does sell apple cider vinegar so I will try that. What is the difference with the vinegar for human consumption? The level of acid?

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New shoot

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2018, 08:56 »
Deep litter is where the run floor is several inches of loose material.  Mine is on soil and has tree bark chips and fallen leaves as the main part, plus plant/vegetable waste I give them to eat.  They scratch it around from top to bottom and their poo falls to the bottom and breaks down without smelling.  You do need space for it to work.  In a small run with lots of chickens, Aidy's method may be better.

If you can't find poultry vinegar, the next best thing is unpasturised apple cider vinegar, but even shop bought normal human stuff will have some benefits.  If you google 'apple cider vinegar chickens worms' you will find a wealth of information.  Some people also put a raw, peeled  garlic clove into the drinking water and change it every few days.

Chickens can have worms and have normal looking poo.  I was just trying to say that unless you are actively checking for worm eggs in the hen's poo, you don't know whether your hens have them or not.

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Toosje

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 19:51 »
Ok, I think the run would be big enough for that. They each have about 16m2 (and free range a lot). The run is mainly for when we are out.

I will worm them and see if anything changes: poo, eating habits, moods. In the mean time I will search for garlic granulate and buy the apple cider vinegar.

Thank you Aidy and New Shoot for thinking with me. I am not sure I will switch to worming preventive, but will definitely give the subject more attention.

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Aidy

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 21:04 »
Since replying to this thread I have found a rather interesting blog from a lady in the US, she uses lots of natural herbs and various other stuff to keep her hens healthy.
Of course there is stuff on there that technically we couldnt do here without breaching DEFRA rules.

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Toosje

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2018, 20:10 »
That sounds very interesting Aidy.

would it be possible for you to post the link to her blog?

I would have to look at Defra rules first!  :wub:

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New shoot

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2018, 07:53 »
DEFRA is a UK government agency, but a lot of the rules we have are EU ones, so probably apply to you as well Toosje.  The main thing is that if a medicine or treatment is not registered with them for a particular use, it is technically illegal (even if natural/herbal/food based).  It is the same with products to kill weeds or insect pests in the garden.

As a forum we can't condone the use of any of these things, but people have to make their own mind up when it comes to what they personally do or don't do.

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Toosje

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2018, 08:17 »
Thank you New Shoot, I'll have a look at it.

I think I started once but didn't read it all or didn't really register ;)
What did register is something about feeding from the kitchen and the dangers to it, but I thought 'I eat plant based so probably less risk there' and haven't given it a thought since..

But anyway: quite possible there are things in it to consider, so I'll put some time in it :)

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Aidy

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Re: To worm preventive or not..
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2018, 11:16 »
I have pretty much read her entire Blog now and have a few ideas/ better understanding about what certain herbs do and how they help (not just with worms).
I am now looking at introducing certain fresh herbs more into their diets, however I will continue my normal route with Flubenvet as mine spend a lot of time in the caged run rather than 100% free range.



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