Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat
Smallhold Farming and Rural Living => Property, Buildings, Equipment and Alternative Energy => Topic started by: helens-hens on October 27, 2011, 12:52
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Hi there
I am normally lurking around the hen house and chicken chat areas but was hoping somebody with experience of woodburners may be able to help me.
We are in the process of buying a woodburner & arranging to have it professionally fitted. We live in an old stone cottage where it is usually colder inside than out! The previous owners, in their wisdom, knocked the downstairs totally through so it is open plan and is also open to the stairway going upstairs.
Downstairs is about 22 ft long, 18 ft wide (at its widest) and 8 ft high. All the stove calculators point to a 6 kw plus stove but this means we legally have to have an air vent which we fear will let in drafts all year around as well as noise (we live on a busy main road).
Some of the 5kw stoves we have seen seem to belt out a lot of heat and the 4.9 kw model we are looking at means no vent is required.
I know it is a long shot but does anyone have experience of a woodburner in a similar sized room who could give their experience of it?
Thanks in advance
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the calculators I have seen don't seem to work out in the real world and based on my experiance 6kw is not large enough unless its just for back ground heat,especially if there is nothing to stop the heat going up the stairs.
We have an 8kw jotul in a 12ft x 15ft x7.5ft room, it has 3 outside stone walls and if the door is left open to the hall and upstairs landing it will not keep the room warm enough in the winter.
I have been burning wood for around 40 years and have several years supply under cover so the moisture content could not be lower.
between the WB cooker and the jotul we get through well over 10 tons a year ,thats proper tons,not what some so called wood merchants loosly refer to as a ton.
smud6ie
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This will be our 3rd year with our woodburner, recommend them to everyone because of the cost of utilities going up :tongue2:. And we live in an ex council house.
Our burner is if I can remember is about 8-9kw, and that heats our 22x11ft living room nicely :happy: plus, we always have all the doors open so the heat can 'spread' through the house.
We don't have a 'vent' as such though, there's a gap around the flooring under the kitchen benches behind the kick boards where the air comes in through the air bricks under the floor.
The size of your house, I'd say (think) you may need 11kw or even bigger. (you can't turn a little one up any more, but you maybe able turn down a larger one)
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Our experience is the 9Kw model we have was great last year when it hit -15 and does pretty well in normal weather. However, we bought a fairly cheap stove and it doesn't work as well as a Jotul (which I saw in action in Norway). It's probably worth spending out on a good make.
Ours is multi-fuel, which is good. You can use coal to provide a bed and it stays in even when the logs have gone. I think it's a toss up which is cheaper - logs or coal. Unless you've your own trees, of course.
As for the legally required vent hole... builder's squirty foam is brilliant stuff for filling holes. If your house is well sealed and draft proofed then you'll probably need the vent though. Do ensure you've a carbon monoxide detector in any case
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Thanks for all your replies - it is always helpful to hear others experiences.
I guess we really have to decide whether this is going to be the main heat source or to work with the existing central heating. Whichever it is it would be nice not to be totally reliant on British Gas with their exorbitant prices!
Thanks again
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Whichever it is it would be nice not to be totally reliant on British Gas with their exorbitant prices!
British Gas - LUXURY!!!! Try Calor (or any LPG or Oil supplier) then you'll know what real pain is :)
Seriously - our total energy bill last year was over £2,000 - hence installing insulation in the loft that's nearly 500mm thick.
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One thing to keep in mind with having both a woodburner and other heat, is that if the thermostat for other heat will be in the same room as the woodburner, then the heat supply won't come on and heat the rest of the house if the woodburner is going and giving out heat even slightly higher than what the thermostat is set for. This can be important for pipes in washrooms, etc.
My thermostat, unfortunately, is around the corner from my woodburner, and the rest of the house is very cool when the woodburner is on. Sadly, wood heat does not go around corners into other rooms very well :( I have an eco fan on the woodburner and a ceiling fan going with the woodburner but heat still won't go around corners.
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I can't remember what kw our woodburner is, but when we had it re-installed 3 years ago to bring it up to Bldg Reg Standards, the people told us that we had to have an air vent in the lounge. Brian in his wisdom told them to put the vent low down, but wished he hadn't as that does give us a draft when its cold and windy. So we do block it up on bad days!
However, I think if it had been higher up, we wouldn't get that draft.
The woodburner (also multi-fuel) heats up the lounge (24ft x 12ft) nicely, but the heat that goes out the lounge door goes half way up the stairs, then disappears into the stairwell!
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When a stove heats a room it fills it with hot air from the top down so if the vent was up high a lot of the heat would rise and go out through it.
The best place for a vent not to create a draught is to have it low down behind the fire/stove.
If this was done from another room you may get the warm air circulating better through the house but the stove would need to be large enough for this and may not comply with BC
smud6ie
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The air vent is the thing that is worrying us, particularly as we live on such a busy main road. There is double glazing in the front of the house because of this and in spite of this, as I tap away on the keyboard now, and particularly as it is raining it is really quite noisy.
It now looks like we are going to opt for the smaller stove and avoid the vent. We want something that we can sit around and enjoy and think it is probably the better option for our needs.
Good point about the thermostat. I must admit I haven't a clue where it is ::) so I will have a look for that now!
Thanks for the replies again. We should have it installed and up and running by the 2nd week of December. I'll give you the verdict then!
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Since I added the insulation in the loft, I'm wondering if we'd have been better with a 5Kw stove than 9Kw. Even with the dampers screwed in we were roasting last night. Mind you, I was burning hawthorn and that burns really hot.
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plus it hasn't got really cold ouside yet, you may be gals of the heat later ;)
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Since I added the insulation in the loft, I'm wondering if we'd have been better with a 5Kw stove than 9Kw. Even with the dampers screwed in we were roasting last night. Mind you, I was burning hawthorn and that burns really hot.
you can always put less logs on to reduce the output,I would always go for the larger stove cos you can't cram more in that it has space for when you need some oomph ;)
smud6ie
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you can always put less logs on to reduce the output,I would always go for the larger stove cos you can't cram more in that it has space for when you need some oomph ;)
smud6ie
Trouble is with ours that it doesn't seem to have a smoulder setting - putting less on is easy but it burns fast even with the air vents closed so just goes out. Unfortunately you can't test drive a woodburner.
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If your stove is not a clean burn model which are designed not to fully shut down then air may be entering through poorly fitting seals.
you can check them by placing a single strip of paper between the door a stove body then closing it and see if the paper is trapped ,try this all the way round .
smud6ie
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From my own experience, i don't think a 5 kw is big enough for your room Helen, 22x18 is a biggish room to heat when the weather is really cold.
We have a Clearview 650 with a flat top. I think its 11-12 kw and its brilliant. Our sitting room is about 20x16 and i wouldn't want anything much smaller than the one we have.
If you are buying wood it may pay to look at a stove that burns the most efficiently as it may be cheaper in the long run.
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John a wood burning stove isn't supposed to smoulder. When it burns efficiently it will have a temperature between i think 300f-400f this is identified by fitting a stove thermometer which just stick to the flue by a magnet.
It doesn't matter how much fuel you have on, the burning temp should be around that figure on the thermometer to tell you that your fuel is burning efficiently. Obviously if do not require much heat just put less fuel on but the burning temp should be in those figures.
If you burn below 300f on the thermometer you will start to produce soot and the stove glass goes black etc, if burning at the correct temp then the glass should be clear and the inside of the stove grey and not sooty.
You cant really use a wood burning stove correctly without a stove thermometer as you need it to set the stove air vents correctly, also your wood has to have a moisture content 20% and below.
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Thanks for the info on the thermometer, Digga
Hoping the wood is dry enough - not sure how to find out though.
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Thanks for the info on the thermometer, Digga
Hoping the wood is dry enough - not sure how to find out though.
Cheap moisture meter from a discount shop has 2 probes that you just press into wood.....may not be exact but good enough for logs. Mine cost 4.99 .... the 9volt battery to work it cost more :)
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Thanks again for the info - I'll keep my eyes open for a moisture meter.
The flue thermometer is winging its way from Ebay.
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I found that you really need a damper right on the pipe after it exits the stove, and that is what helps control the burn. If I recall the pic of yours, John, I think the mantle might be in the way.
As said, if its still warmish (meaning not full blustery winter) outside, then yes, you'll cook inside. And some woods definitely put out a lot of heat like maple and elm. Trick is to put only one piece of that with cooler burning wood.
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All this talk about woodburners makes me want to change mine to a one that has a hotplate and oven. :wub:
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I spent a few hours reducing pallet wood to small kindling sticks today. Tonight it's only fallen to 12 deg outside so not even having a fire :(
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I spent a few hours reducing pallet wood to small kindling sticks today. Tonight it's only fallen to 12 deg outside so not even having a fire :(
Pallet wood will have been kiln dried John so will have a reduced moisture content unless they have got wet of course.
Ash is a great wood for burning as it requires little drying and burns hot, but most other woods whether they be good or bad as regards heat output will need kiln drying or storing from at least 12 months to 2 years so that they will be dry enough for burning.
If you burn un-seasoned wood with a higher moisture content than 20%, then the fire will not burn hot enough as you are produced lots of steam and slowing the combustion ability of the wood because it will have too much moisture. Also you will produce a sticky tar residue which will line your chimney/flue and this can be a fire hazard if it builds up.
If you stove is burning correctly then your glass door will be un-sooted and fairly clean and the inside of your stove will be greyish instead of sooty black. Your chimney/flue will just have powderery dry deposits and require much less cleaning.
You will also be nice and warm :)
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Well I took your advice and am waiting for the moisture meter to arrive from ebay. Interesting article as well - many thanks
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We've always cut wood one year and waited to use that wood for at least a year or more. Never use recently cut wood unless the tree itself was long dead (my favourite kind, actually).
As for chimneys, we've always had the unlined pipes coming out of the stove and whatever length remains exposed to the room. This maximizes the heat output in the room.
Immediately after that, is lined pipes to minimize creosote buildup. You can never totally avoid creosote as its part and parcel of wood burning, but you can minimize the buildup. Be prepared, with a proper flue brush, to do an annual or semi-annual chimney cleanout depending on how much you use the stove. We found it easier to hire a fellow to clean out the pipes and also check the stove connections and door gasket (which usually needs replacing every 2nd or 3rd year). We could do it ourselves but his fee is reasonable and he gets to climb the roof if necessary. In the dead of winter, if needed, this is a positive plus ;)
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Well I took your advice and am waiting for the moisture meter to arrive from ebay. Interesting article as well - many thanks
When you check the moisture content of a log,split and measure in the centre which give a more reliable reading.
I split a 5 ft long ,9" diameter piece of ash which had been in a stack in the wood for nearly 3 years,at its centre was still green and my stanley moisure meter was off the scale
smud6ie
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Well I'm learning loads here - thanks.
There's quite a bit of old wood around the place which I hope is usable this year but if not it will be here next year.
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I've been following this with great interest, as we had decided to get a woodburner (multi-fuel) & had ordered a 5kw stove. It was installed Friday & the first small fire was yesterday....
Very nice and warm - too warm in this unseasonably mild weather, but we couldn't bear to wait!
We're lucky that we have a good supplier of seasoned logs nearby, so will now be ordering in a truckload.
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How have you got on John? Did your flue thermometer come yet?
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How have you got on John? Did your flue thermometer come yet?
The flue thermometer hasn't arrived yet but the moisture meter has. The wood stored inside by the stove (with enough gap so it doesn't catch fire!) is 20% - that in the woodstore about 30% and the pallet wood is 16%. Haven't tried the freshly cut sycamore yet, although I wasn't planning on burning that this year anyway
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When I started this thread I didn't realise how much interest bthere would be!
Just read the link to 'grow your own' about efficiently running a stove which was really informative and like John I think I am going to order a thermometer. Our local pub has a stove and the glass at the front soots up quite a lot so I am keen to get started on the right foot.
We are having it installed almost exactly a month from today - can't wait!
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John a wood burning stove isn't supposed to smoulder. When it burns efficiently it will have a temperature between i think 300f-400f this is identified by fitting a stove thermometer which just stick to the flue by a magnet.
It doesn't matter how much fuel you have on, the burning temp should be around that figure on the thermometer to tell you that your fuel is burning efficiently. Obviously if do not require much heat just put less fuel on but the burning temp should be in those figures.
If you burn below 300f on the thermometer you will start to produce soot and the stove glass goes black etc, if burning at the correct temp then the glass should be clear and the inside of the stove grey and not sooty.
You cant really use a wood burning stove correctly without a stove thermometer as you need it to set the stove air vents correctly, also your wood has to have a moisture content 20% and below.
Now all of you know by now that i am not at all 'technical' ::) So i need explanation please.
If you need less heat and put on less wood will you ever get up to the 300f you need :unsure:
Surely if you only put a couple of logs on to start with they will burn away very quickly and you'll just have to keep adding other logs and never get any real heat out.
I find the real heat comes after the flames have settled down and the vents are closed or partially closed
We only have a magnetic thermometer on the front of our stove. I load it up well with kindling and logs, open both vents and let it roar away until the dial shows around 400 then close it down. It stays like that for a long time and we don't very often have to add any more logs for an evenings warmth. By the time the dial starts to drop we are thinking about bedtime anyway.
Its the less wood and getting up to temp. that i find puzzling. :unsure:
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Do you understand this now? :)
Not entirely, but thankyou for trying :lol:
I understand about the grasses burning and the flames sort of moving over the logs because that is what we get after we close the vents. Its getting to that point, without having a good 'bottom' in the stove you wont get that and you dont get that without burning wood. :)
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I dont understand your reply.
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I dont understand your reply.
Funny that, my OH says that to me quite often :D
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I got a flue thermometer from ebay but it only came from just up the road :) They're a good idea to use, if only at least til you get used to your log burner and the way it behaves. Mine says on it "too hot" so you are quite clear as to when you need to turn it down :D
I knock the logs together and they should ring if they are dry enough, rather than a dull thud
We cut some dead trees out the hedge the other day and they were good to go and didn't need stacking
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Flue thermometers are super helpful if you have a cheaper brand of stove. The metal on these can be on the thin or cheap side and if you have too hot heat too often, then the metal will fatigue (usually shows as a rusty colour) and one day collapse....possibly in mid burn. Woodburners are darned serious items and should never be taken lightly.
We always bought quality burners and pipes, but still installed a flue thermometer against potentially 'too hot' burns. You never quite know just how hot some pieces will burn despite 'statistics' or heat tables for wood. OH and I even took a class on burning properly and it was very interesting. The burner seller (shop) gave the lessons free by a qualified person. I think all shops should offer mandatory classes.
But I still see a lot of people overloading their burners thinking they'll get an all day burn while they're out or sleeping, then can't understand why their house burned down. My neighbour is a fireman and he's told me of many unfortunate families misled by this point. It takes time and experience to do long burns so please, newcomers, don't try it until you're very very sure.
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Glad we have ours tonight - the gas supply to the house has failed so no heating, hot water or cooking on gas! Time for another log...
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Oh dear :(
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Could be worse - we thought the boiler had gone at first. Now we know it's the gas Mr Calor can fix it (I hope)
24 degrees here by the fire.. 10.3 outside. Mild night, thank goodness
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Yikes, that's the first time I've heard of gas going off. Nice that you have the backup. I've always tried to get flat top burners for cooking and we always made lots of use of them.
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Our gas is delivered by truck and pumped into a storage tank. What had happened was a branch had hit a pipe causing a shockwave which tripped a safety valve. 2 second job to fix when you know what to do.
The flue thermometer arrived today - looking forward to trying it out.
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Finding it interesting using the flue thermometer. I think I've been running it too hot up to now. Hopefully running it properly will save a log or two!
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Our living room is tiny and we have this one http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-regal-stove/brand/clarke our "vent" is the fact we have our original 1930s floor boards and so have the air vents from that :)
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and I haven't got double glazing :D