Green Manure vs no dig

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meriad

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Green Manure vs no dig
« on: September 19, 2018, 13:20 »
And another question(s) from me.. sorry!

Am I right in assuming that you would not use green manure if you're looking to take the 'no-dig' approach to gardening?     I have 10 small raised beds (1x2m each) on the allotment at the moment (more to be done as and when I can) and am not sure if I should go no-dig for some or all and green manure for others. 

And am I right in thinking I shouldn't use green manure if I'm looking to plant beans and rather use a no-dig method for those beds?     But a good idea to use green manure for beds that had beans / peas this year?

thanks!   

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Goosegirl

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 14:43 »
I've never used green manure (presume you mean plants) but would assume they should be dug in rather than just left. Others on here will know more. BTW - don't apologise for asking questions as that's what we're here for.
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mumofstig

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 14:55 »
You could grow something like Phacelia or Mustard (don't use mustard for next year's Brassica beds though), which are often killed by winter frost anyway. If any top-growth remains in Spring, strim it and add to your compost bins. The roots will add benefit to the soil, without any need to dig :)

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snowdrops

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 16:01 »
Some green manure needs digging in so not ideal for no dig, although you can just strimmer some down & use it as useful additions for the compost bins. I’d thoroughly recommend no dig, I’ve converted the whole of my full allotment to it this year & wont be changing back. The garden also got the same treatment in some areas & the rest will be converted over the winter. Frees up loads of time for planting & sowing
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meriad

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 16:07 »
thank you all....  all taken on board.  I'm quite keen on the no-dig idea so will give things a think :D

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rowlandwells

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 17:22 »
i'm not really into the no dig gardening but I'm interested to know more about green manure because I've been told there are many benefits for using green manure to improve the soil in both razed beds and open ground


as i understand you need to turn or dig in in the green manure before it goes to seed to get the best results because we always  use farm manure on a rotation basis i have to hold my hands up to knowing litle about when is the best time to sow green manure and what to plant after digging or turning it in the ground  so more info from those who use green manure would be most welcome

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meriad

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 10:39 »
I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has used green manure 

I bought two packs of it when I was at Wyevale the other day (they had the 50p per pack of seed sale on) with the thought of giving it a go and doing some beds no-dig and others with the green manure. 

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/Profile?pid=373#section-2  has some advice and there's more on the internet, but as said - personal feedback from others would be great to have

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Plot 1 Problems

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 10:57 »
I use rye grass as a green manure as it's roots drill deep into hard soil and it releases an enzyme that inhibits weed seed germination. It also doesn't belong to any of the traditional crop family groups so you don't have to consider it as part of the crop rotation. I personally dont dig it in as it's really tough work, so I just chop and drop and leave it as a mulch until I need to plant out, where I clear it away and compost.
It's worth noting though that it needs to be chopped off at least a month before any direct sown crops to stop the rye grass from preventing germination of your own seeds!

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New shoot

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 11:06 »
I've just sown 50p seed sale phacalia and I have used that one before.  Its warm enough to get it going, but as MoS says, is usually killed over the winter.  I have used rye in the past and would agree with Plotty's comments on that one.

My soil gets dug every year and I use compost, green manure and mulches over different areas each time.  My heavy clay is now much improved and turns over really well.  On our site a few have tried no-dig, but to honest, not done it well.  Done properly (and it does take research, commitment and work) it may be a different story.  Suffice to say, they disappeared fairly quickly and left the mother of all messes for the next plot holder to clear. 

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Stewarty

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 13:27 »
In theory I'm a great fan of no-dig, have read lots of Charles Dowding's stuff and watched his videos, as well as lots of American evangelical 'back to Eden' material.   In practice, though, I'm a bit of a prisoner of my own habits, I own a rotovator and a Mantis, and I'm deterred by the effort of obtaining and transporting large quantities of mulch material.
As an example of my foolishness  -  this summer a long-term allotment neighbour finally bowed to serious illness, and gave up his plot. He bequeathed me his large, aged compost heap. With my son who was visiting from France I spent 3 hot afternoons digging out and barrowing the compost some 100 yards to my plots, where we spread it on 2 previously rotovated areas, totalling some 80 square yards.

One part of me said, fine, leave it over winter as no dig beds. I rather wish I'd had the faith and done that. But some not entirely rational impulse made me rotovate it in, rake it level, and sow with a mixture of rye grass and vetch. which has now germinated and is about 4 inches high, despite the dry weather.

I'd welcome comments as to whether I've just been indulging in massive waste of effort and resources...

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rowlandwells

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 16:18 »
i seem to follow you Stewarty in many ways small rotovator [mantis] razed beds larger [Viking] rotovator open garden and all our spent compost goes dawn the allotments for the razed beds along with horse manure

so back to green manure after many interesting and informative replies I'm going to grow more green manure next year I bought 500G of green manure general mix 2yrs ago and several 50p packets of buckwheat from Wyevale the other day  that i understand needs to be sown August to October


it sounds like a good idea to strim the green manure down before turning it in the ground  :unsure: as for sowing seed mark out the plot and broadcast the seed alternatively i could borrow my farmer friends  slug spreader suggested sowing for general mix  [3 gram/sqm] and i note your reply Mum regarding mustard and brassicas


thanks all for that info much appreciated  :)

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al78

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 22:27 »
I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has used green manure 

I bought two packs of it when I was at Wyevale the other day (they had the 50p per pack of seed sale on) with the thought of giving it a go and doing some beds no-dig and others with the green manure. 

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/Profile?pid=373#section-2  has some advice and there's more on the internet, but as said - personal feedback from others would be great to have

I've used it a few times and I can't say I've noticed any tangible benefit. I have used the overwinter varieties such ass field beans, tares and grazing rye. Contrary to what some people claim it doesn't stop the weeds growing. I have sown in on the assumption that it will keep the soil covered over winter but even here, it is patchy, when sown in September it just doesn't have enough time to get big enough to act as decent protection for the soil, and I find it tends to put on a growth spurt in early Spring, then becomes a pain in the neck to dig in, especially when it refuses to die and you are waiting to sow seeds direct. My soil texture seems to be improving more as I add significant amounts of horse manure ever year. The other problem with an overwintering green manure (or mulching with fallen leaves) is that it becomes a haven for slugs. I am going to try just the manure application this year.

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New shoot

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 11:00 »

I'd welcome comments as to whether I've just been indulging in massive waste of effort and resources...

I would never describe soil prep like that as a waste of effort and resources.  An aged compost heap was a generous gift and needed to be treated with due care and attention.  You have made great use of it, plus got a green manure crop in as well to further improve soil structure.

It is sad your plot neighbour has had to give up, but I bet he would be thrilled with your work.  Treat him to a few homegrown goodies next year - they are bound to be great after all that good stuff going into the soil  :)


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simbamara

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 15:32 »
I must confess I am a bit confused by the conflicting views on using Green Manure over winter !!
So to be clear , no green manure eg Mustard seeds for next years Legumes or Brassicas ?
Better cover the ground with black sheets /
Thanks

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Plot 1 Problems

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Re: Green Manure vs no dig
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 21:29 »
I must confess I am a bit confused by the conflicting views on using Green Manure over winter !!
So to be clear , no green manure eg Mustard seeds for next years Legumes or Brassicas ?
Better cover the ground with black sheets /
Thanks

Different green manures belong to different plant groups, just like your edible crops. It does take some planning and research but it's pretty easy to rotate the green manures just like your normal crops.
Each to their own of course but I'd much rather have something in the ground cultivating the soil rather than hiding it under plastic!




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