Allotment Gardening Advice Help Chat

Smallhold Farming and Rural Living => Livestock and Growing on a larger scale => Topic started by: John on September 07, 2010, 14:21

Title: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 07, 2010, 14:21
Our land is quite acidic and suffers from a fair bit of wind. There's plenty of moisture though, being in N Wales. I'd like to put some trees, perhaps coppice, in to eventually keep the woodburner going and wondered what the best trees for the purpose would be. Willow seems well thought of but for better, more lowland, conditions.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: GrannieAnnie on September 07, 2010, 14:38
You moved already then John?   :lol: :lol:  Better get my welcome to your new home card posted then!  :lol:
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 07, 2010, 14:40
No, we've not moved yet but may as well start planning what we're going to do.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: GrannieAnnie on September 07, 2010, 14:44
 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: arugula on September 07, 2010, 14:58
John,

I would suggest trees like Rowan or Silver Birch.

Good Celtic trees too! :D

:)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: GrannieAnnie on September 07, 2010, 15:01
This article is interesting!

http://cleantechnica.com/2010/03/02/money-doesnt-grow-on-trees-but-biofuel-does/
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 07, 2010, 15:09
Well the plan is to border at least some of the fields with hedging and trees, both providing shelter and eventually fuel. Small trimmings will go through the shredder and thence to to compost heaps as the veg plot is going to need a lot of improvement.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: noshed on September 07, 2010, 15:16
Some of these might help: http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=74,23223&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: arugula on September 07, 2010, 15:18
Far from teaching anyone to suck eggs, we went for a native mix for our hedge plants - from a tree supplier up here supplied bare root - it is lovely as you have a variety of spiky things and different berries and flowers etc.

:)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 07, 2010, 15:21
Don't worry - we're jumping right out of our comfort zone into pastures new. Which is what makes it so exciting. :)

Native plants appeal as we want to improve the ecology and bio-diversity.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: noshed on September 07, 2010, 17:10
I was at a camp site over the bank holiday weekend which is next to a school. The school had a fairly new hedge around it and it was full of blackberries, rosehips, damsons and suchlike. It looked great and the birds were happy too.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: ACatCalledElvis on September 07, 2010, 18:42
Cant help you for Wales - but we are looking to do the same thing - plant up half an acre of willow - and see if that keeps us going - if you look in Country Smallholding there are a number of nurseries who do quick growing trees
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Trillium on September 07, 2010, 19:11
I wonder if UK willow trees are different from North American ones, as almost no one here will use willow in their woodburners - the wood is too soft and sappy. Cut down a willow tree by the roadside and the wood will stay there forever over here. Evergreens are somewhat similar - a bit is good to start off the fire but no more as the resins cause too much creosote buildup inside your pipes/chimneys and would require a lot more cleaning during the worse parts of the year.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: ACatCalledElvis on September 07, 2010, 19:38
hmmmm - something I think I will check out - htey are very clearly put forward as the fast growing tree for coppice mangement and wood burning fuel - I remeber as a kid pine/fir did what you describe - but I dont think we ever bunrt willow!
Thanks for the point
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 07, 2010, 19:44
besides growing for bio fuel, consider sectioning off an area to grow spruces (for the festive season - sorry don't want to say the C word just yet  ::)), they are quick growing and a steady source of income every winter.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 07, 2010, 20:52
I've bought a book on permaculture and one on British trees - neither give much detailed info. I think hazel coppice is a possibility though.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 07, 2010, 20:56
great for making hurdles for temporary fencing in those sheep  :). Loved making them but it is hard work.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Trillium on September 08, 2010, 02:21
I have a large black walnut tree that had 2 trunks close to the base. During a heavy snowstorm, one half literally snapped off from the snow load. Took us ages in spring to clear away the mess and bitty branches but figured now we at least had a single, sort of straight trunk. Nope. Loads of shoots coming off the broken side and I'm now thinking that I should coppice them. Hard to beat walnut for density. Can't remember where it stands in heat units for woodburners though.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: kevinp on September 08, 2010, 06:53
Found this on another forum it should help you decide


The Firewood Poem
Beechwood fires are bright and clear
If the logs are kept a year,
Chestnut's only good they say,
If for logs 'tis laid away.
Make a fire of Elder tree,
Death within your house will be;
But ash new or ash old,
Is fit for a queen with crown of gold

Birch and fir logs burn too fast
Blaze up bright and do not last,
it is by the Irish said
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread.
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould,
E'en the very flames are cold
But ash green or ash brown
Is fit for a queen with golden crown

Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke,
Apple wood will scent your room
Pear wood smells like flowers in bloom
Oaken logs, if dry and old
keep away the winter's cold
But ash wet or ash dry
a king shall warm his slippers by.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Thrift on September 08, 2010, 08:00
I don't know how quickly it grows but we have quite a few laurel around, growng in similar conditions.

It gives tremendous heat when seasoned ( burns like coal ) and regenerates after cutting.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 08:17
it also contains hydrogen cyanide so don't burn the leaves  :(
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 08, 2010, 08:46
Came across a tree nursery 1,000 ft up in Wales so I reckon they should be able to supply trees and hedging plants that will grow in challenging conditions.

Quote from: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 08:17
it also contains hydrogen cyanide so don't burn the leaves  :(

Wow! didn't know that - amazing.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: tedsdad on September 08, 2010, 09:32
This place is 900ft up on poor sandy soil all coppice planted ash and hazel has thrived as does all standard native hedging.Half an acre well managed should produce enough to heata good sized house in 10 to 12 years.Ash is an amazing wood,far more tolerant of poor growing conditions than many people realise.------- dont know about the willow in Canada round here it's mostly salix alba or salix caprea both these burn quite well'but need to be seasoned for a couple of years. Best wishes with your move.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: tedsdad on September 08, 2010, 09:39
Should add that I'm on about our place in shropshire,not where half my stuff,and the kids and the missus(and me soonas)are in Emiglia Romagnia!- there we burn sweet chestnut.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: gillie on September 08, 2010, 11:10
Quote from: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 08:17
it also contains hydrogen cyanide so don't burn the leaves  :(

Laurel grows fast.

Together with our neighbours we cut down an overgrown laurel hedge and had a huge bonfire.  Everyone enjoyed themselves - and are none the worse for it!

Gillie

Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 08, 2010, 11:42
Quote from: tedsdad on September 08, 2010, 09:32
This place is 900ft up on poor sandy soil all coppice planted ash and hazel has thrived as does all standard native hedging.Half an acre well managed should produce enough to heata good sized house in 10 to 12 years.Ash is an amazing wood,far more tolerant of poor growing conditions than many people realise.------- dont know about the willow in Canada round here it's mostly salix alba or salix caprea both these burn quite well'but need to be seasoned for a couple of years. Best wishes with your move.
Thanks for that - I'd like to stick with mixed native species rather than those awful mono-culture conifer plantations, so reassuring to read that you think ash will thrive.
Hope you and your family are re-united full time soon.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: tedsdad on September 08, 2010, 13:47
well  it' amazing how much I get done without Ted and co. 'helping'!Just one thing,you probably know anyhow,ensure that all hawthorn(cretaegus monygyna) has been grown from UK collected seed.The foreign thorn is slightly different,so you'd be messing with the local ecology.(Notlike planting Leylandii but best avoid any how)Good nurseries are aware of this. There used to a great native species grower near Welshpool don't know if they're still about,if not try the bloke at Bucknell nurseries on the Salop border,he's helpful knowledgable and not dear, and no relation  of  mine!
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Thrift on September 08, 2010, 17:13
Quote from: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 08:17
it also contains hydrogen cyanide so don't burn the leaves  :(

Gosh !! I didn't know that either but was told laurel leaves are poisonous and was surprised to see the cows ( dairy !!) eating them.

I have also had bonfires and lived to tell the tale.  :) :)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 17:54
so have we - however you have bonfires out in the open air,so it is only fair to advise anybody who is burning them in a more enclosed space that it would be better if they didn't burn the leaves.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: arugula on September 08, 2010, 18:17
Quote from: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 17:54
so have we - however you have bonfires out in the open air,so it is only fair to advise anybody who is burning them in a more enclosed space that it would be better if they didn't burn the leaves.

As Joy says, its better to be safe than sorry. These mods know what they're talking about. ;)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 08, 2010, 22:46
it does help having attended an agricultural college and studying woodland management  :)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Trillium on September 09, 2010, 00:28
Okay, here's the chart I was actually thinking of, although the poem was cute.

http://extension.usu.edu/forestry/HomeTown/General_HeatingWithWood.htm
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: noshed on September 09, 2010, 09:53
Crikey, there's a whole world I didn't know about.
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 09, 2010, 11:09
Quote from: noshed on September 09, 2010, 09:53
Crikey, there's a whole world I didn't know about.

That's the fun of it! I'm surprised how hard it's been to find out information (so far) - basic info that is fairly easy to find on vegetables like preferred conditions, pH etc seems quite hard to find on hedging plants and trees.

Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 09, 2010, 11:15
with trees and shrubs John, take a drive around the locality and see what is flourishing, not all native species will thrive in all areas (same as growing anything  :)).
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: compostqueen on September 09, 2010, 12:31
We got our log burner based on having so many trees that needed felling here. The best burners so far are ash and sycamore and they've not taken long to dry out for use.  We have some dead hazels that we've not chopped up yet so can't comment on those yet  :)

The ash self seeds like crazy so don't buy any  :D  I could pop you some in the post  :D
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: joyfull on September 09, 2010, 12:34
I have a huge ash tree that never gets any seeds on it - I must have the only barren one in Lincolnshire I think  ::) :lol:
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 09, 2010, 12:40
Quote from: compostqueen on September 09, 2010, 12:31

The ash self seeds like crazy so don't buy any  :D  I could pop you some in the post  :D

You're on, thanks!  :D :D
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: compostqueen on September 09, 2010, 12:42
Oh well never mind, they are a flipping nuisance as they spring up where you don't want them  :nowink:

I have a huge ash tree near the house and it's sitting right next to the sewerage manhole. We've put in a new manhole just in case. The tree is about to get a tidy up and we're relishing the firewood that's going to come off it. It's a fab tree, still growing, but plenty of dead stuff and crossing branches to remove. It should be lovely once trimmed and we get firewood for months  :D
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: compostqueen on September 09, 2010, 12:44
I can send you some John just say when you're ready  :D  They seem to root very readily and are a pig to get out once they're settled which is a defence mechanism against wind I'd say  :)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: Poolfield2 on September 16, 2010, 23:39
In all seriousness ash is very easy for coppicing, it grows straight branches and within 4 years they are a sizeable diameter. Ash copes with exposed positions and is impossible to kill :lol:

We could also supply enough seed for several hectares :lol: :lol:

We have had excellent quality hedge plants from http://www.hedge-plants.co.uk/ and the only thing that didn't cope with our ferocious gales was Holm Oak, we have always bought 40-60cm barerooted plants and they have done brilliantly.

Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: John on September 17, 2010, 00:00
Thanks for that :)
Title: Re: Suitable Trees for Bio Fuel on Poor Land
Post by: sion01 on October 22, 2010, 17:08
Willow isn't that good for burning BUT you can get a lot of trees for free as they grow really well from hardwood cuttings.When I worked for the national trust I remember cutting thousands of 'wands' from a willow patch that had developed the ability over centurys to flourish where they were occasionally hit by sea spray.

I tried it again a couple of years ago for a man who wanted cover for shooting around a lake.All i did was cut a 6-10inch wand,sharpen the lower end and stick it about half way in to the soil.I planted 100 and 94 are about 8ft high now.