[Swing Swang]

I think what is being implied is that you are presenting a 'straw man argument' to make your point. This means that the debate gets deflected away from the point in hand (in this case glyphosate) such that it is, at first appearances, necessary to argue against the 'straw man' (thalidomide) before returning to the original point. Aunt Sally, as one of the mods, was basically preventing this thread shooting off on a tangent. Speaking as someone who is quite capable of mustering up a whole army of straw men, and who also thinks the glyphosate ban is totally inappropriate, I still feel that her response was appropriate.

[Trikidiki]

I might agree with the suggestion my point was a 'straw man' except that it wasn't an extension of the argument regarding the glyphosate ban but a counter to 'al78' s suggestion we should trust science, so admittedly following his tangent. However, no more of a tangent than 'Aunt Sally's ' own list of potentially cancer causing foods. ( https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ )

Unfortunately, glyphosphate, like many other 'inventions' is something that would probably best not been invented at all, but now we have it......

In deference to the original topic I won't comment further.

[New shoot]

I might agree with the suggestion my point was a 'straw man' except that it wasn't an extension of the argument regarding the glyphosate ban but a counter to 'al78' s suggestion we should trust science, so admittedly following his tangent. However, no more of a tangent than 'Aunt Sally's ' own list of potentially cancer causing foods. ( https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ )

Unfortunately, glyphosphate, like many other 'inventions' is something that would probably best not been invented at all, but now we have it......

In deference to the original topic I won't comment further.

Tbh, this thread is in danger of getting locked if people persist is making it into a fight, so no-one will get to comment further.

[John]

We'll have no fighting or EU voting arguments here, thank you Besides, British politicians and civil servants can be complete idiots however the vote goes!

It strikes me from a lot of reading on the net that there are concerns about glyphosate that need further, independent investigation. If I was king of the world, I'd stop it's use as a cereal desiccant and on gm crops immediately as that has to get it straight into our food.

There is evidence indicating people directly exposed to a lot of glyphosate can be made ill - mainly from poorer countries where protective gear is often non-existent for workers and it is applied from the air to gm crops.

The amount a gardener is likely to use / be exposed to is far smaller and I think domestic banning it is just a sop to poorly  informed people who have not looked beyond the headlines in the popular press.

The 4 litres I've got left will see me out .. and we won't even mention the Derris in the shed   

[Growster...]

Nice one John!

[sunshineband]

We'll have no fighting or EU voting arguments here, thank you Besides, British politicians and civil servants can be complete idiots however the vote goes!

It strikes me from a lot of reading on the net that there are concerns about glyphosate that need further, independent investigation. If I was king of the world, I'd stop it's use as a cereal desiccant and on gm crops immediately as that has to get it straight into our food.

There is evidence indicating people directly exposed to a lot of glyphosate can be made ill - mainly from poorer countries where protective gear is often non-existent for workers and it is applied from the air to gm crops.

The amount a gardener is likely to use / be exposed to is far smaller and I think domestic banning it is just a sop to poorly  informed people who have not looked beyond the headlines in the popular press.

The 4 litres I've got left will see me out .. and we won't even mention the Derris in the shed   

Or the Bordeaux mixture either 😉

[AlaninCarlisle]

I still have 4 unused 5 litre containers of creosote. I put two fingers up to the ban many moons ago and bought a job lot

[jezza]

 Hi  one of the reasons that Glyphosate is coming under review is that in some European countries Glyphosate  was sprayed neat onto land (no water added) At the market garden i worked at in the  1990s we had horticultural exchange students the boss asked one of them to spray round the outside of the greenhouse  he put 4 gallon of weedkiller in the sprayer  no water the boss went mad only to be told thats the way he was shown in  Portugal  Benomil was treated the same way put the powder in a fertilizer spreader and spread on to a damp crop early morning    jezza

[Swing Swang]

This of course highlights a big problem with all agrochemicals whether used commercially or domestically.

It's not difficult to calculate the precise dose for insecticide/herbicide/fertiliser etc but too many of us don't.
- read the label
- read the label
- do a first test with plain water so you know the time taken to empty your sprayer/watering can/dribble bar etc
- do a second test - walk up and down your rows at the speed you normally spray at - much more realistic if you do this with water rather than 'dry'
- with a simple bit of maths you can work out the exact dose of chemicals that you are putting on your land/plants (i reckon to within 5% at least) and make the necessary adjustments (to the concentration or how fast you walk)
- this way you know how long it takes to empty your particular sprayer.
- read the label
- pay heed to safety instructions, and wear the appropriate personal safety equipment if needed (masks/eye shields/gloves/tyvek disposable overalls)
- this is all particularly important if we are buying commercial strength glyphosate (36%) rather than garden centre concentrations (circa 14%)

Probably talking to the converted here, but I do feel that we must take a responsible attitude towards all the chemicals that we use or else the legislators will have just reason to take the draconian measures that many of us object to.

There are too many of us that just 'splash a bit in the bottom of the can', or 'use up the rest at the end of the season' - in fact it's how I used to behave until a kindly market gardener took me to task and spent no more than five minutes chatting to me and putting me on the right track. Previously not only did I 'add a bit extra for insurance', but also often dosed the land 'one extra time just to make sure' (usually because the first application was too early in the season). Now when I use chemicals I am ruthlessly efficient, and use only the correct dose at precisely the right stage of the growing cycle and as a consequence use only 20-35% of what I used to.

One of the factors for us domestic users to consider is that the cost of domestic chemicals is a small part of what we spend on our gardens/allotments, so whilst we pay way over the odds for them, as a percentage of total spend it's quite low, so we may be tempted to adopt bad habits. Hopefully by sharing the way that I've changed my behaviour others will be prompted to do likewise (actually I hope that all who read this are mega-responsible and don't need to make any adjustments)

As an aside - the commercial boys are running to such tight margins and the cost of their consumables are high in proportion, and they often have to live under a tight regulations, that they are often the most efficient users of chemicals.

[John]

What a well put piece -:)

[jezza]

hii  iknow this isnt  glyphosate but the list of chemicals that was required to be put on a lettuce crop from 2 leaf stage to within 7 days of cutting Carbaril Dimethoate  Difflurecan Fenitrothion Maneb Metasistox Methiocarb (slug control) Ronilan Rovril Thiram Zineb   11 in total  most or all are banned i hope im not against Glyphosate i just dont like the way some people swirl it around  without  considering where it goes   Jezza

[Goneterseed]

Does post Brexit mean that we can have all our chemicals back? 

[Aunt Sally]

Nope 

[Goneterseed]

I guess I'm stuck with the washing up liquid spray then. 

[Aunt Sally]

Oh no... that's illegal too 

Unless you're using it as a foliar feed